Leaf Spring Bowie that I made
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From what I have read good tool steel was readily available at many locations in the 1700-1800's, and it would have been cheap enough to make its use over some tool preferable. Tools at that time were generally not viewed as disposable and they cost a lot more than they do today and as such were probably re-conditioned as much as possible. I am sure old tools were re-purposed as they are today, but probably not as much as one would think.
That being said it is a neat looking knife and has a look of something from another time.
That being said it is a neat looking knife and has a look of something from another time.
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I agree. Over 35 yrs of blacksmithing I've learned the hard way that there are reasons old springs are thrown away. I've sure used them alot but I have had tools, competantly forged and appropriatly heat treated that.. just failed.. sometimes catastrophically. If you're dinking around it may not matter but if you are really trying to make something special or that you will need to depend on.. the metal is the cheapest part of the project and the best insurance.
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Rich, Don't all of the flap keep you from posting more pictures of your knife work!
Rick
Rick
lonehunter
58 Cal.
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horner75 said:
What Rick said.
Good work! :thumbsup:
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I fully agree Rich. Definitely post more of your work. I only meant to possibly save you from the pain of a broken blade after working for hours to make it. It would seem things got a bit side tracked. My apologies to you for my part in that.
Wick Ellerbe said:
Wick, I am sorry I pricked yer ego.
I did say
. Nothing about springs.
Without my own expertise I cannot debate any longer with you. However, the thought did come to mind regarding stock removal and forging. The Arkansas guys forge. They fold and pound many times before shaping the blade. I dunno :idunno: if that makes a difference. And, my joshing aside, you would be welcome in our state. I invite you to the state museum (hisstoric Arkansas Museum, lovingly known as Ham) and view the display. And, check the site for schools and conventions. You both might learn something. BTW, did you look at the torture tests? Flawed steel isn't going to survive that.
Rich, you forged a nice looking blade there. Love your guard and tang, too. Having used a charcoal forge and mystery steel myself for some years, I appreciate your achievement. I have watched my "Knifemaking Unplugged" video of Tim Lively forging a camp knife out of a Ford 5160 leaf spring so many times it is wearing out. There is a great attraction in the "neo-tribal" approach to making something as useful as a knife out of nothing but scrap and burnt wood. I even collected a lot of my fuel from burned tree slash piles on national forest land.
All that said, Wick brings a clear and wonderfully experienced eye and a sound message in his suggestion to avoid a complete waste of time, talent and effort by using known raw material.
Of course, in my case, my complete and utter lack of any trace of talent or ability in forging or knifemaking makes junk mystery steel the perfect material for me, as everything I have ever tried to make has ended up a misshapen lump needing to be recycled!
:rotf: :redface:
All that said, Wick brings a clear and wonderfully experienced eye and a sound message in his suggestion to avoid a complete waste of time, talent and effort by using known raw material.
Of course, in my case, my complete and utter lack of any trace of talent or ability in forging or knifemaking makes junk mystery steel the perfect material for me, as everything I have ever tried to make has ended up a misshapen lump needing to be recycled!
:rotf: :redface:
Yeah, I don't know if poor old Rich427 is still reading these posts but the knife is good, it is just the POSSIBLE side effects on using a truck spring and the notion that the price of steel compared to the work involved in making a blade (for me at least)- it just makes sense to play it safe and use known steel.
I've tried forging with mixed results. I did the "One Brick Forge" of Wayne Goddard fame. I got the steel up to yellow and burned out the carbon. On another I did a gut hook- already beveled and the bevel caused the tip to warp on the quench. I've used cheap steel just "to fool around" but on a serious project I would always buy steel. My forging talents are such that I've gone back to stock removal. Still, forging is a lot of fun, wish I was better at it. The pc way.
In any event anyone that is forging blades has my respect,keep at it Rich 427.
I've tried forging with mixed results. I did the "One Brick Forge" of Wayne Goddard fame. I got the steel up to yellow and burned out the carbon. On another I did a gut hook- already beveled and the bevel caused the tip to warp on the quench. I've used cheap steel just "to fool around" but on a serious project I would always buy steel. My forging talents are such that I've gone back to stock removal. Still, forging is a lot of fun, wish I was better at it. The pc way.
In any event anyone that is forging blades has my respect,keep at it Rich 427.
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"Without my own expertise I cannot debate any longer with you. However, the thought did come to mind regarding stock removal and forging. The Arkansas guys forge. They fold and pound many times before shaping the blade.
I dunno :idunno: if that makes a difference. And, my joshing aside, you would be welcome in our state. I invite you to the state museum (hisstoric Arkansas Museum, lovingly known as Ham) and view the display. And, check the site for schools and conventions. You both might learn something. BTW, did you look at the torture tests? Flawed steel isn't going to survive that."
Much of what you say, believe, is problematic. "truck spring steel" covers many different types of steel. No single one in particular. The common choice of steel for those "tests" is most often 5160 because it is pretty easy to heat treat well enough to pass those tests. Has nothing to do with forging as to it's quality. I can assure you these guys are not taking this "truck spring steel" alone, and folding it and pounding. They are using it with another steel to make Damascus, and folding and pounding both together. Damascus is pretty, and that is about it. It is inferior in edge holding compared to a mono steel of the same type as that which is the best edge holder of the two used in making the Damascus that the mono steel is being compared to. In these tests, the blades are only edge hardened and tempered. This allows bending to 90°, and it is really not that difficult to do. Believe it or not, this can be done out side of Arkansas. These tests are more to test the ability of a maker to pass the test, rather than how good of a blade he can acually make. The heat treat used in these tests is not recommended, even by the judges, for making a superior blade, even of the same steel. These tests are basically worthless to determine the real quality of the blade. They only show the makers ability to be able to pass the testing. Forging does nothing to increase the quality of steel as it comes from the mill, as far as a common knife blade. If a radical curve, or bend, yes, but not in common knife shapes. Forging does not change grain direction because the grain is only directional after being hot rolled which elongates it. The first time the steel is heated red hot, the grains revert to a shapeless state with zero direction, and cannot be elongated again without hot rolling. Increased strength in directional application is from tiny occlusions and inclusions, impurities, in the steel which have also been elongated in the rolling process. Shapeless grains surround the borders of these making a stronger unit like condition, sort of like a common button hole. These unit like structures will follow the direction of the steel structure they are trapped in because heat has no effect on their elongated shape, as it does with the shape of the elongated grains, which will react to heat much like a short section of lead solder which will ball up with enough heat applied. Beyond directional strength in radical bends, forging is only superior in allowing more opportunity in shaping steel which might be otherwise impractical, or more difficult to do any other way.
I dunno :idunno: if that makes a difference. And, my joshing aside, you would be welcome in our state. I invite you to the state museum (hisstoric Arkansas Museum, lovingly known as Ham) and view the display. And, check the site for schools and conventions. You both might learn something. BTW, did you look at the torture tests? Flawed steel isn't going to survive that."
Much of what you say, believe, is problematic. "truck spring steel" covers many different types of steel. No single one in particular. The common choice of steel for those "tests" is most often 5160 because it is pretty easy to heat treat well enough to pass those tests. Has nothing to do with forging as to it's quality. I can assure you these guys are not taking this "truck spring steel" alone, and folding it and pounding. They are using it with another steel to make Damascus, and folding and pounding both together. Damascus is pretty, and that is about it. It is inferior in edge holding compared to a mono steel of the same type as that which is the best edge holder of the two used in making the Damascus that the mono steel is being compared to. In these tests, the blades are only edge hardened and tempered. This allows bending to 90°, and it is really not that difficult to do. Believe it or not, this can be done out side of Arkansas. These tests are more to test the ability of a maker to pass the test, rather than how good of a blade he can acually make. The heat treat used in these tests is not recommended, even by the judges, for making a superior blade, even of the same steel. These tests are basically worthless to determine the real quality of the blade. They only show the makers ability to be able to pass the testing. Forging does nothing to increase the quality of steel as it comes from the mill, as far as a common knife blade. If a radical curve, or bend, yes, but not in common knife shapes. Forging does not change grain direction because the grain is only directional after being hot rolled which elongates it. The first time the steel is heated red hot, the grains revert to a shapeless state with zero direction, and cannot be elongated again without hot rolling. Increased strength in directional application is from tiny occlusions and inclusions, impurities, in the steel which have also been elongated in the rolling process. Shapeless grains surround the borders of these making a stronger unit like condition, sort of like a common button hole. These unit like structures will follow the direction of the steel structure they are trapped in because heat has no effect on their elongated shape, as it does with the shape of the elongated grains, which will react to heat much like a short section of lead solder which will ball up with enough heat applied. Beyond directional strength in radical bends, forging is only superior in allowing more opportunity in shaping steel which might be otherwise impractical, or more difficult to do any other way.
Only reporting what I have seen.
I watched on blade being forged. He used only the one blank of steel, no second type. Same with a lot of videos on the procedure. Many of the finished blades are shiny bright with no hint of the "damascus" pattern. Many (most?) of the knives on display at HAM by master bladesmiths do not show any damascus pattern but they were forged.
I would invite you to visit Little Rock, Arkansas and the museum. A check of the blade smith web site might give you a date when a meeting or convention is being held.
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Wick, Excellent explanation and one can't argue with known facts.
Learned something new today!... :hatsoff:
Rick
Learned something new today!... :hatsoff:
Rick
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What you saw was most likely a pre-tack welded billet of two different steels in order to fold and forge weld together to make a Damascus billet, or you saw them making shear steel from blister steel. The basic process is very similar, but the results of pattern welding into Damascus differs somewhat. Damascus pattern only really shows when the blade is acid etched. Until then it pretty much looks like any other piece of steel unless closely scrutinized. There would be little to no reason, or any real advantage to fold and forge weld a single bar of mono steel into layers, although it has probably been done for reasons unknown. A lot of work for little to no advantage over the original bar. Forging a blade does not mean it has to be folded into layers. That is only done of necessity. Forging a blade, in general, is just one way of shaping it, and produces a blade of no better quality, nor of any less if done right, than stock removal. The quality of the finished product depends more on the heat treat and choice of steel more than anything else. Bar steel from the steel mill is actually pre-forged steel. A hammer cannot match nor improve the results of what has already been done to it. All the smith, hammer, heat, and anvil can do is to shape it as desired.
What I saw and was told: the steel is the same as what truck springs are made from. They receive it in strips the width of the eventual springs, about 2" to 3", it is aprox. 1/4" thick. They do heat, fold and pound. The process is repeated until they eventuall pound to desired shape. These masters, considered the best in the country, believe the forging or re-forging makes the steel better.
Your theory is one approach. Their's is another.
Enter some of your knives and blades into one of their competitions. See what happens.
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I've done all that journeyman testing using a stock removal blade. It really proves nothing of great importance, and is basically just a handful of parlor tricks to impress the uninformed. aside from the forging, it doesn't require a lot of skill to pass that test level. Just good steel, good heat treat, and the right geometry in the edge, and in the case of cutting a hanging rope, the right weight and blade length. Big deal! Lets stop this. We've hi-jacked the mans thread enough already, and then some.
I, for one, applaud your creative use of scrap steel to make things, such as your Bowie knife.I too prefer to use recycled material to build most of what I build with scrap steel, iron, brass etc... in the form of truck springs, old files, High strength bolts, saw blades, and brass candlesticks. I forge knife blades, tomahawks, gun parts (barrels, locks, furniture)and cast brass parts. Dozens of local folks have been using my blades for a long time and refer their friends. I'm no master craftsman but I have fun with it.I say, Welcome to the club!
Wick- I see these photos in bladesmith magazines where the guy uses the knife to chop down a sapling, then shave hair off his arm, and then puts the blade in a vise and bends it 90 degrees without breaking. I'll admit- its pretty impressive BUT I've wondered if a blade for a hunting knife in the field - that needs to be re-sharpened with a whetstone- it that kind of steel what you want or would another steel serve better?
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Each knife user has his own standards of what he expects and what he will settle for. Each steel has it's own boundaries with in a balance of toughness and hardness. A blade primarily used for skinning can be made harder on one end of the scale, where as one for chopping might be on the other end. Too much beyond the scale on either end and it may become more of a single purpose tool. 01, A-2, and properly HTed 1095 excel at holding a cutting edge. 5160 and similar steels excel at high impact uses as in chopping, but any of these will get by at doing either. All of these can be made tougher overall with a soft back temper, not to be confused with edge quenching. Edge quenching allows the 90° bends, but at the expense of acual strength. Depends on your needs. I don't want a bent blade, but to each his own. 52100 steel does very well in any application, but does not yet come in a variety of sizes for stock removal. The ideal blade is one that does what you want done, at a minimum of touch up.
Well, I'm just thinking out loud but a softer steel ought to be easier to re-sharpen (I think) and some of these very hard steels- harder to re-sharpen (I think) but one thing I've never understood is whether some steels that are hard and hold an edge a long time can also have the advantage of being easy (or fairly easy) to re-sharpen. This is assuming a hand held whetstone is used and a leather strop. Some of the "field" knives I use- say the Russel Green River types, they seem pretty easy to re-sharpen. Some of that might be that they are thin and the bevel is sharper to begin with. The edge holds pretty good on those. On some "state of the art" knives, the edge holds a lot longer but I've found them harder to re-sharpen although that might be my skills (or lack thereof) at sharpening.
There is also the issue of the bevel. If you have a sharpening guide maybe the standard 30 degree hold will produce a razor edge but a lot of times I initially take the bevel down much thinner- it helps me re-sharpen with a hand held whetstone but I'm wondering if the thinner bevel reduces edge holding qualities.
So...is there this trade off between edge holding and being able to re-sharpen or are there simply better steels that do more, hold a good edge and are able to be resharpened fairly easily? I hope I'm making sense on this one.
There is also the issue of the bevel. If you have a sharpening guide maybe the standard 30 degree hold will produce a razor edge but a lot of times I initially take the bevel down much thinner- it helps me re-sharpen with a hand held whetstone but I'm wondering if the thinner bevel reduces edge holding qualities.
So...is there this trade off between edge holding and being able to re-sharpen or are there simply better steels that do more, hold a good edge and are able to be resharpened fairly easily? I hope I'm making sense on this one.
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