WANTED leather bag with woven strap

[Tacksman45]

Does anyone have a large leather bag with a diamond pattern woven strap similar to the one worn by Sir William Johnson in "The Death of General Wolfe," or the portrait of Robert Rogers? If so I will be glad to consider any offers you may have. Thanks!

 

[andy52]

Is this the bag that you're referring

to?

 

[andy52]

The one of rogers seems to be two straps one on top of the other.

 

[andy52]

And a Hollywood

misrepresentation of the bag....

 

[andy52]

I've enlarged both paintings to the point of distortion and I'm not sure those straps are woven.
To me, they appear to be leather that has been embroidered or appliqued. They seem to have a sort of hair lock running down both sides.
Went back and enlarged them again, I'm thinking they are leather with beaded applique.
I couldn't get a clear picture of the bag though. The reason I'm saying all this is I would like to make a reproduction of the bag and strap if I can figure out what they are constructed of.

 

[Tacksman45]

I've enlarged both paintings to the point of distortion and I'm not sure those straps are woven.
To me, they appear to be leather that has been embroidered or appliqued. They seem to have a sort of hair lock running down both sides.
Went back and enlarged them again, I'm thinking they are leather with beaded applique.
I couldn't get a clear picture of the bag though. The reason I'm saying all this is I would like to make a reproduction of the bag and strap if I can figure out what they are constructed of.

Andy Thanks so much for all your replies! That is the one I am referring to, I should have posted the paintings. The portrait of Robert Rogers was an interpretation, so it is unlikely the artist ever actually saw him. I almost wonder if the artist did not base the uniform in this portrait on the uniform of Johnson in The Death of General Wolfe, or if the man in the green jacket in that painting if actually meant to be Robert Rogers, as I have heard it posited. I assume one of the straps in the Rogers portrait is meant to be for the bag, and one is meant for the powder horn. I agree that the straps in the paintings are supposed to be beaded, however I will go with woven simply to be on the simpler side since the ranger company I am joining airs of the side of simpler. As for good old Major Rogers from Northwest Passage (which is a fantastic movie) the bag is much more plausible than the dyed green fringed buckskin outfits.
As far as what they are made of I would say TDoGW depicts a brown leather strap with wampum beads and red tassels, and it looks like the bag itself may have tassels or mesh on the front of it. I think the one in the portrait of Rogers is the same but the leather might be meant to be painted red.
If I was going to build this bag I would do a dark brown cow or elk leather bag, with red tassels on the flap, and I would either do a woven strap with the design woven into it, or a brown leather strap with a white thong laced through it and tassels on the edges made from the red embroidery floss. I would also make the strap adjustable, but with a thong laced through a series of holes rather than with a buckle. Let me know if you decide to build one, and I also want first refusal.

 

[andy52]

Andy Thanks so much for all your replies! That is the one I am referring to, I should have posted the paintings. The portrait of Robert Rogers was an interpretation, so it is unlikely the artist ever actually saw him. I almost wonder if the artist did not base the uniform in this portrait on the uniform of Johnson in The Death of General Wolfe, or if the man in the green jacket in that painting if actually meant to be Robert Rogers, as I have heard it posited. I assume one of the straps in the Rogers portrait is meant to be for the bag, and one is meant for the powder horn. I agree that the straps in the paintings are supposed to be beaded, however I will go with woven simply to be on the simpler side since the ranger company I am joining airs of the side of simpler. As for good old Major Rogers from Northwest Passage (which is a fantastic movie) the bag is much more plausible than the dyed green fringed buckskin outfits.
As far as what they are made of I would say TDoGW depicts a brown leather strap with wampum beads and red tassels, and it looks like the bag itself may have tassels or mesh on the front of it. I think the one in the portrait of Rogers is the same but the leather might be meant to be painted red.
If I was going to build this bag I would do a dark brown cow or elk leather bag, with red tassels on the flap, and I would either do a woven strap with the design woven into it, or a brown leather strap with a white thong laced through it and tassels on the edges made from the red embroidery floss. I would also make the strap adjustable, but with a thong laced through a series of holes rather than with a buckle. Let me know if you decide to build one, and I also want first refusal.

I like trying to reproduce things like this and might just give it a try sometime after the first of the year.
If you can find a clearer photo of the bag itself please post it.
The strap is pretty clear in the painting and shouldn't be too hard to make. If I try this I'll do the strap as it's depicted in the painting with leather and beaded applique. The tassels are red in one and white in the other, personally, I'd prefer the red one.
The portrait of Rogers is rather cartoonish and the strap seems too wide to me, However, the first painting is much more refined and when I pulled in really tight on the strap it appears to have a leather piping on the edge which is a nice touch.
The leather itself I think is an English tan color which fits the period.

 

[Snapper Petta]

Not saying I'm correct but from the looks of those straps, I wouldn't be surprised if they were fingerwoven with the bead pattern woven into the strap as it was being constructed. It looks too similar to the many Native made bags I've seen over the years to not be a possibility.

That's all for now. Take care and until next time...be well.

snapper

 

[htredneck]

Enlarged 400%

 

[Toklo Etee]

It is probably oblique finger woven with the beads(8/0) worked in. If you look at the attached image.....that is how the vertical bands of this sash is constructed.
Many of the quilled black leather bags of the Northeast have a finger woven strap.

Very time consuming but makes for a stunning visual effect.

David

 

[Tacksman45]

I like trying to reproduce things like this and might just give it a try sometime after the first of the year.
If you can find a clearer photo of the bag itself please post it.
The strap is pretty clear in the painting and shouldn't be too hard to make. If I try this I'll do the strap as it's depicted in the painting with leather and beaded applique. The tassels are red in one and white in the other, personally, I'd prefer the red one.
The portrait of Rogers is rather cartoonish and the strap seems too wide to me, However, the first painting is much more refined and when I pulled in really tight on the strap it appears to have a leather piping on the edge which is a nice touch.
The leather itself I think is an English tan color which fits the period.

I completely agree the example from DoGW is the one to go with. Hope you decide to build it, and if so I can't wait to see how it turns out!

 

[Toklo Etee]

This is probably closer to what the artist was trying to interpret. In the West painting he gives great details but unfortunately not much can be seen of the bag. Benjamin West collected Native American manufactured items to use as props in his paintings

David

 

[Cvkotvkse]

With the single continuous lines of white beads along the edges, as well as those making the diamond pattern, I believe the depiction is of a trade cloth strip with an applique of beads (possibly still on the original trade strand loops, as this was very common,) appliqued, then sewn onto the strap. My people (Muscogee as well as Apalachicola Creeks) still make large and intricate beaded fingerwoven sashes and baldrics, but for continuous lines on narrower pieces like the ones portrayed in this thread, especially if the strap actually had something of any weight suspended from it, the applique of pre-strung beads has been the more common choice going back to the mid-eighteenth century, at least.

 

[andy52]

I completely agree the example from DoGW is the one to go with. Hope you decide to build it, and if so I can't wait to see how it turns out!

I've pretty much made up my mind to attempt to reproduce the strap after the first of the year. I'm not sure yet about the bag construction yet.
Cvkotvkse makes some good points that I hadn't thought of.
I'm not going to try and finger weave and add beads as I go that's outside my wheelhouse.
As an alternative to leather, however, I could use a piece of cotton webbing of the appropriate color to apply the beads too, whereas with two lightweight pieces of leather with the beads sewn to one side before and the other placed on after, then the stitching on the beads would be protected from wear.

 

[French Colonial]

I don't know what this is but to me it appears to be quill work on smoked moose hide

Note the white lines of quill work along the sides and just above the bottom of the bag, color of the moose hide is about right as well.

 

[andy52]

I don't know what this is but to me it appears to be quill work on smoked moose hide

View attachment 104286

View attachment 104287

Note the white lines of quill work along the sides and just above the bottom of the bag, color of the moose hide is about right as well.

Could you show the back side of that bag so I can see how it's attached.

 

[French Colonial]

Its just very simply tied
I have posted pictures of this bag before it is an almost exact copy of one in the Museum of Civilization in Ottawa it was made by Cathi Sibley from pictures David Wright took

 

[andy52]

View attachment 104296View attachment 104297

Its just very simply tied
I have posted pictures of this bag before it is an almost exact copy of one in the Museum of Civilization in Ottawa it was made by Cathi Sibley from pictures David Wright took

Thanks, I'm not sure I'll go with an attachment that simple but it gives me an idea of where the strap is located. One more question does the bag have a spacer between front and back or is it a flat style bag.

 

[French Colonial]

It’s just a simple flat bag, it does have a cloth liner of the same material as the back of the strap

 

[Cvkotvkse]

I suspect that the strap portrayed consists of the beaded applique being sewn to one single wider leather strap, rather than being a webbing between two narrow ones. Remember, the function of the strap is to carry a heavy bag; the applique is for decoration. The strap needs some flexibility, sufficient strength, AND AS LITTLE STRETCH AS POSSIBLE. In this case, a wide leather strap with Native decoration. (If the man wearing it is indeed Sir William Johnston, there is a strong possibility it was decorated by his Mohawk wife, the sister of Joseph Brant.)
Although heavy wool fingerwoven straps on fingerwoven bags existed here early on, by the early nineteenth century, at least here in the Southeast, pillow-ticking had become the more common backing, with the beaded cloth applique being sewn onto it, with either beaded or ribbon edging. This combination also met the three requirements I listed above.