Leather for rifle bags?

[Realwarrior]

I would like to see that also

 

[LongWalker]

Sorry for the delay, had to contact the owner. For now, he's declined my request to share the photos--it sounds like there may be a publication in the works.

 

[Artificer]

I have many sides of veg tan in various thicknesses, and plenty of leather dyes. I'm wondering if there is a better leather choice that would be more historically accurate than veg tan.

Hi Harry,

There is another historically accurate leather than plain veg/bark tan and that is still available today. It can be better for making shot pouches/hunting bags, if it suits your needs.

Prior to and during the 18th/early 19th centuries Tanners took some veg/bark tanned leather and after the tanning process was done, made them into "Oil/Oyl Stufft" or "Oil/Oyl Stuff'd" (Oil Stuffed in modern spelling) leather. This was is/an added processing where they may or may not have dyed the leather FIRST and then they worked oils and waxes into the leather.

Working oils and waxes into the leather made the leather more resistant to water/weather damage for leather that would be used to make things often/usually used outdoors.

Doddridge tells us that every frontier cabin (mid 18th century) had their own tanning pit that frontier settlers used to "bark tan" or "veg tan" leather using bark from trees (like oak, willow or douglas fir) that have a lot of natural tannin in them. Those settlers may or may not have used natural plant dyes to dye the leather or may have just used the leather "as is" and got a light tan to slightly brown "russet" color.

Now you DO NOT want to buy just any "Oil Tan/Tanned" leather on the market today to recreate using period "Oyl Stufft" leather. Again as a reminder that "Oil Tan" is a process done after tanning, so for example you should ask if the leather was veg tanned because that is what you want. You DO NOT want Oil Tan / Chrome tanned leather as chrome tanning did not come out until after our period.

You also DO NOT want Oil Tan leather that they embossed or rolled in rolling dyes to make a uniform surface texture on the smooth side of the leather. (I was disappointed a while back that one kind of Oil Tan/Veg tanned leather Tandy stocked and I really liked the weight and temper of the leather, had this rolled embossed surface texture, so I didn't buy it for historic repro's.)

I was also surprised the first time I bought Oil Tan/Veg tanned leather that the thickness of the leather is or at least can be DIFFERENT from the same oz weight of veg tanned leather, which did not at first make sense to me and I found Oil Tan leather to be THINNER than the same oz weight in veg tanned.

As an example of this, the first Oil Tan hide I looked at was a 3-4 oz weight that some folks prefer for a shot pouch/hunting bag when using Veg Tan, BUT when I actually felt the temper (how much it bends and stretches) of the leather - I thought it would be too thin to stand up to going through brambles and thick branches. I much preferred the 4-5 oz weight in Oil Tan that was about the same thickness as 3-4 oz in veg tan. Heck, I have felt some 5-7 oz Oil Tan that was perfect and some that was a bit too thick and that brings up the importance of you feeling the temper of the leather in person (if you can) or at least asking for or offering to pay a little bit for some samples of leather you are trying to decide about before you buy.

OK, so why is the difference in thickness by oz weight between Veg tanned and Oil Tan leather? Well, supposedly way back in time they came up with the oz or ounce weight of leather by cutting one foot squares of leather and may or may not have soaked the squares in water and then weighed the foot squares of leather. The thicker the leather, the more it weighed and thus the higher oz weight. OK, so when they worked oils and waxes into the leather to make them "Oyl Stufft," that made each thickness weigh more than Veg Tan at the same thickness without the added oils and waxes. Now I hope this explanation is not confusing, but the real "take away" on this is don't be surprised that Oil Tan leather is not the same thickness as common Veg Tan leather.

One thing I think is GREAT about Oil Tan for our use in creating historic replica's is when you buy many types of less expensive Oil Tan that are fine to excellent for our purpose, is it often does not come out in a "perfect uniform color." Now I know that more expensive commercial leathers made even during the period, could and did come out in an almost perfect uniform color. However, if a period settler tanned leather in his own tanning pit and then "Oyl Stufft" it, OR if got a period commercially tanned hide from many tanners in the colonies, the leather would not or at least may not have that "perfect uniform color."

More on Veg tanned leather in my next post.

Gus

PS Sorry, forgot to add this above. The only "bad" thing about Oil Tan leather outside it's slightly higher price is that you take whatever color you can get because with the oils and waxes worked into it, it is very difficult to impossible to change the color by staining/dyeing it later.

 

[Brokennock]

Hi Harry,

There is another historically accurate leather than plain veg/bark tan and that is still available today. It can be better for making shot pouches/hunting bags, if it suits your needs.

Prior to and during the 18th/early 19th centuries Tanners took some veg/bark tanned leather and after the tanning process was done, made them into "Oil/Oyl Stufft" or "Oil/Oyl Stuff'd" (Oil Stuffed in modern spelling) leather. This was is/an added processing where they may or may not have dyed the leather FIRST and then they worked oils and waxes into the leather.

Working oils and waxes into the leather made the leather more resistant to water/weather damage for leather that would be used to make things often/usually used outdoors.

Doddridge tells us that every frontier cabin (mid 18th century) had their own tanning pit that frontier settlers used to "bark tan" or "veg tan" leather using bark from trees (like oak, willow or douglas fir) that have a lot of natural tannin in them. Those settlers may or may not have used natural plant dyes to dye the leather or may have just used the leather "as is" and got a light tan to slightly brown "russet" color.

Now you DO NOT want to buy just any "Oil Tan/Tanned" leather on the market today to recreate using period "Oyl Stufft" leather. Again as a reminder that "Oil Tan" is a process done after tanning, so for example you should ask if the leather was veg tanned because that is what you want. You DO NOT want Oil Tan / Chrome tanned leather as chrome tanning did not come out until after our period.

You also DO NOT want Oil Tan leather that they embossed or rolled in rolling dyes to make a uniform surface texture on the smooth side of the leather. (I was disappointed a while back that one kind of Oil Tan/Veg tanned leather Tandy stocked and I really liked the weight and temper of the leather, had this rolled embossed surface texture, so I didn't buy it for historic repro's.)

I was also surprised the first time I bought Oil Tan/Veg tanned leather that the thickness of the leather is or at least can be DIFFERENT from the same oz weight of veg tanned leather, which did not at first make sense to me and I found Oil Tan leather to be THINNER than the same oz weight in veg tanned.

As an example of this, the first Oil Tan hide I looked at was a 3-4 oz weight that some folks prefer for a shot pouch/hunting bag when using Veg Tan, BUT when I actually felt the temper (how much it bends and stretches) of the leather - I thought it would be too thin to stand up to going through brambles and thick branches. I much preferred the 4-5 oz weight in Oil Tan that was about the same thickness as 3-4 oz in veg tan. Heck, I have felt some 5-7 oz Oil Tan that was perfect and some that was a bit too thick and that brings up the importance of you feeling the temper of the leather in person (if you can) or at least asking for or offering to pay a little bit for some samples of leather you are trying to decide about before you buy.

OK, so why is the difference in thickness by oz weight between Veg tanned and Oil Tan leather? Well, supposedly way back in time they came up with the oz or ounce weight of leather by cutting one foot squares of leather and may or may not have soaked the squares in water and then weighed the foot squares of leather. The thicker the leather, the more it weighed and thus the higher oz weight. OK, so when they worked oils and waxes into the leather to make them "Oyl Stufft," that made each thickness weigh more than Veg Tan at the same thickness without the added oils and waxes. Now I hope this explanation is not confusing, but the real "take away" on this is don't be surprised that Oil Tan leather is not the same thickness as common Veg Tan leather.

One thing I think is GREAT about Oil Tan for our use in creating historic replica's is when you buy many types of less expensive Oil Tan that are fine to excellent for our purpose, is it often does not come out in a "perfect uniform color." Now I know that more expensive commercial leathers made even during the period, could and did come out in an almost perfect uniform color. However, if a period settler tanned leather in his own tanning pit and then "Oyl Stufft" it, OR if got a period commercially tanned hide from many tanners in the colonies, the leather would not or at least may not have that "perfect uniform color."

More on Veg tanned leather in my next post.

Gus

PS Sorry, forgot to add this above. The only "bad" thing about Oil Tan leather outside it's slightly higher price is that you take whatever color you can get because with the oils and waxes worked into it, it is very difficult to impossible to change the color by staining/dyeing it later.

I'm probably misremembering the name but wasn't there another leather (that I recall a quote about being used for at least one shot pouch) called something like, "red Russia leather? I think it was tanned with fish oils maybe?

 

[Artificer]

I'm probably misremembering the name but wasn't there another leather (that I recall a quote about being used for at least one shot pouch) called something like, "red Russia leather? I think it was tanned with fish oils maybe?

Yes there was, known as "Russia Leather" and it was probably the most expensive leather back then or now, other than for exotic stuff of course. It was tanned with willow bark and then oil stuffed with birch oil.

More info:

https://blog.library.si.edu/blog/2023/01/18/russia-leather/

Someone recently claims to have rediscovered the tanning process.

https://www.jfjbaker.co.uk/russian-leather

I did not mention it as it has got to be far too expensive for most of us to use.

Gus

 

[Brokennock]

Yes there was, known as "Russia Leather" and it was probably the most expensive leather back then or now, other than for exotic stuff of course. It was tanned with willow bark and then oil stuffed with birch oil.

More info:

https://blog.library.si.edu/blog/2023/01/18/russia-leather/

Someone recently claims to have rediscovered the tanning process.

https://www.jfjbaker.co.uk/russian-leather

I did not mention it as it has got to be far too expensive for most of us to use.

Gus

Yup, that's what I was thinking of. Someone here sometime back got his hands on some I believe original leather that was recovered from a wreck or some such a while back.

 

[Harry Marinakis]

I just finished flipping this bag right side out. Still soaking wet. I used 4-5 oz. veg tan.

Copy of a simple beaver tail bag
Grant, The Kentucky rifle Hunting Pouch, Plate 9

 

[Artificer]

Yup, that's what I was thinking of. Someone here sometime back got his hands on some I believe original leather that was recovered from a wreck or some such a while back.

Info on that wreck was at the bottom of one of my links, I think the Smithsonian one.

Gus

 

[Woodwright]

Veg-Tan Tooling Calfskin​

https://tandyleather.com/products/veg-tan-tooling-calf?_pos=4&_sid=69e8bc2c2&_ss=r

 

[Ohio Rusty]

So with folks talking about the different leather ounce weights for bags, I use the Leather thickness gauge that Tandy sells. You just slide the edge of your leather up the slot and where it stops is the thickness or ounce weight of the leather that you have. Then you know what leather you are using in ounce measure.
Ohio Rusty ><>

 

[Artificer]

OK, now for more on Veg tanned leather.

For this post, I want to focus on leather that folks new to making leather projects and especially those on a tight budget may want to consider. Heck, I am NO trained expert like some on the forum, though I've been doing period leather projects since the 1970's and I still buy these kinds of leather from time to time.

Before we begin on the leather, I would like to take a moment to again mention it is very important to actually go to the leather store and feel the "temper" of the leather you are considering. Temper means how the leather bends and stretches, though when buying good size pieces of Veg Tan it is difficult to really get a good idea on how smaller cut pieces will stretch.

I often go to my local Tandy Store in Richmond, VA; when Tandy is running monthly sales. (I usually check Tandy's national website once a month to see what is on sale.) The store usually has a good size pile of the sale items to choose from and I normally go through the entire pile to find what is best for my uses. I have gotten GREAT deals on leather that will really suit my needs on those trips.

OK, so the next question might be, "How large of a piece of leather do I need to make just one Shot Pouch/Hunting Bag?" Well, if you go into the store to pick out the pieces - you can examine the leather for size, condition I.E. size, thin spots, range scars etc., thickness and temper. I personally don't mind some scars or minor faults in the leather when I'm doing simple projects, because I will put the leather that has them in places that won't show from the outside. Also if you think about if you had your own tanning vat outside your frontier cabin in the period, you probably would have done the same thing.

Oh, when you go into Tandy to look at the leather that is on sale each month and if you are buying single or double shoulders, sides or full hides; there will be a pile of each and with different thicknesses and amount of useable leather that you pick from. I love to dig in these piles to find the "buried treasure" pieces I can use. It's true some pieces in each pile may not be worth the money, but don't be surprised if you must choose through more pieces than you had planned on buying. Yeah, I've planned on maybe one or two pieces when I walked in at times, but walked out with four or five that I just could not let go for the price. Grin.

1. For a single pouch/bag and for which you also want to cut a Two piece carrying strap from the same leather, I have found many of the Tandy Economy Single Shoulders to be more than enough with some little left over. Just make sure you figure you will cut the two pieces for the carrying strap from what was the center back of the hide, as that is the best place for leather straps or belts.

Tandy doesn't have a sale on these this month while I'm writing this on Single Shoulders, but they have a GREAT Deal on Double Shoulders, which will certainly make one or maybe even two pouches/bags with a Two Piece Strap. HOWEVER, the price is ONLY $29.95 and I've happily paid that much for their Economy Single Shoulders in the past!! Looks like I will be going to the Tandy Store tomorrow! Grin.

https://tandyleather.com/collection...sale/products/economy-veg-tan-double-shoulder

2. For a single pouch/bag that you want to use a One piece Carrying Strap or if you wish to cut a number of strap or belt pieces, then a Economy "Side" is what you need. Actually you should have enough for two pouches/bags with this size piece.

https://tandyleather.com/collection...sale/products/economy-veg-tan-double-shoulder

3. OK, so what happens when you find really nice leather and it isn't quite enough to get a One Piece carrying strap from or you have left over leather from cutting the body parts of pouches/bags and don't have enough for a carrying strap? Or what if you only need leather for a belt? (Oh, I've found the weight of these straps super good for most belts.) Well, that's where the "Lightweight Cowhide Leather Strips" come in handy. Unfortunately they don't come in anything less thick than 4-5 oz thick and that might be too thick for some 3-4 oz leather pouches, but again go through the pile or selection to see if a slightly thicker piece will work for you. At only $ 7.49 on sale this month, that's about what I paid over the last 20 years or so when I needed to make a single belt, etc.

https://tandyleather.com/collections/leather/products/lightweight-cowhide-leather-strips-50

Finally, I keep MOST of the left over pieces of leather I buy to use in the future for smaller items. Never know when you may need to make even something as small as a belt loop or modern watch strap etc. Grin.

Hope this post helps.

Gus