Leman rifle .. possible Tex Rev connections ...

The flintlock seems out of place on a gun claimed to be a Leman

Tom - not sure why you would feel that way - Leman did make flintlocks - here are three and there are also sales/purchase records which document his making/selling flintlocks

In the second photo the lower two rifles are by M. Fordney with whom Henry Leman apprenticed before opening his own shop in 1834. Note the tricker guards on the Fordney's - I scaled them and within the limits of the original photos are dead ringers for the one on the "Texas Leman". Also it is very similar if not quite exact to ones seen on a Gibbs rifle shown in Kaufmann's Pa/Ky Rifle and on this Deringer.

The sideplate kept ringing a bell in my head - it is an almost exact match in pattern, but maybe not quite in size to the one on my Potsdam musket dated 1820. I can supply a pic if desired.

With all that said I do agree that the rifle is most likely a "parts" gun, but perhaps it could be an early form of Gov't Contract rifle? Whatever the origin it is still an interesting rifle gun..

as always others mileage will vary.....

 

[Wehrmacht]

You bring up an excellent point! I have a suspicion that Mexico is awash with interesting and rare muzzleloaders. From my contacts in the interior of Mexico I've learned that,while the Country has very rigid gun control laws,muzzleloaders and .22 rifles are tolerated or accepted by law enforcement as exempt from seizure. Think I'll make some contacts in various Mexican states and see if I can turn up anything interesting :wink: .

 

[Okwaho]

Chuck, I guess it's because I'm not used to seeing Leman flintlocks although I still wonder about the gun I saw so many years ago missing the lock.The one that Gorge illustrated is a really grand gun and I wondered,as I said,about a connection with Melchoir Fordney especially after seeing the chevron nose cap on the Lehman illustrated by George.I have not seen any documentation as to his possible apprenticeship with Fordney but Hansen states that,

"at the age of sixteen he is reported to have been apprenticed to Melchoir Fordney one of Lancaster's most outstanding[url] gunsmiths.In[/url] 1831 he moved to Philadelphia and worked for the Tryon Company..."
I don't disagree given the similarity of the Shumway gun and Fordney's work although the design and engraving of the box and other metal mounts appears much finer than Forney's work.I can't help but wonder if there was some association between Leman and Jacob Kuntz who was working in Philadelphia during Leman's stay there See"Longrifle Articles"Vol.I PP.14-15 for the Kuntz rifle in the Winterthur Museum. I do think,however, that if he apprenticed with Fordney he started at an earlier age than sixteen which would have given him only a three year apprenticeship rather than the customary six or seven years.It has been suggested by some that the engraving on one or more of the great rifles of the Allentown school may have had the engraving done by Jacob Kuntz/Kunz.

The quality of Leman's guns illustrated by Shumway and Hansen is much finer than the subject gun which reinforces my opinion that it is a composite gun utilizing recovered parts including a Leman barrel.Nevertheless it is a fine old gun with perhaps a storied past and one where if you close your eyes you can smell the pioneer or Indian campfires.
Tom Patton

 

[faw3]

Hey DAVY ya should of put up "Maybe Used at Alamo" and really got people going. You do come up with some of the best stuff. Mex is a funny place about guns, not to long ago they made a full auto 22 handgun, and I pulled a box of old spurs out of a VERY old jail along with the remains of a flintlock many yrs ago, now if you want AK47s or MAC 10-11S ....... :rotf: "Mexico I want to go " who sand it ? quick Davy. :wink: FRED :hatsoff:

 

[davy]

Even if it turned out to be a composite gun ... that does not mean it was not put together in the early time period. As I have said before ... the way I understand it many earlier gunsmith used various parts made by other gunsmiths at hand to build rifles.

I still find the story behind the rifle tantilzing even if it is unprovable in a real sense .. found in Mexico, supposedly brought back by a Mex Army soldier form Texas .. this dates a realitively small period of time in which is could have been procured. IF this was found by a bigtime antique dealer I would find it alot more suspect. But this was found by a couple traveling thru an obscure Mex Village. Takes thinking on! :hmm: :grin:

Davy

 

[brubincam]

anyone have any idea how many muskets and rifles were used[or on hand] by the ALAMO defenders?

 

[whitedog333]

The official report by the Mexicans after the siege of the Alamo was a little over 800 muskets, rifles and pistols. Most of the guns were third model Brown Besses of British manufacture that had been kept in the Mexican armory of General Coss, the brother in law of Santa Anna and the commander of the garrison at the alamo fort that was captured by Bowie and the Texans in December of 1835. It's believed that most of the volunteers at the Alamo were issued the muskets, and had around five apiece, loaded and at the ready but not primed, for the eventual final attack. However, there were some volunteers like the Gonzales men who rode into the Alamo on March 2nd or 3rd who had their own rifles, not muskets. Also, there were the 17 men who arrived with the Crockett party who had their own rifles.These by the way were mostly men who'd joined up with the Crodkett party along the way and were not from Tennessee. Upon the end of the siege, orders were given by Santa Anna to collect all personal and military equipment as well as clothing from the dead and the fort. The military muskets of brown bess pattern which had been Mexican issue, were put back into military service. The clothing stripped off of the bodies before they were stacked up into three piles for cremation, was collected along with all personal weapons and property, and sold off at an auction that brought very little money to pay the troops off. I was told by Tom Lindly that mostly the officers and the NCO's were the only one's in the army to have any money. The civilian population of Bexar (San Antonio)and merchants bought the rest. Fred

 

[Okwaho]

It has long been thought in the collecting fraternity but not strictly provable that the best and most impressive high dollar fakes have come out of Mexico including such weapons as Walkers and Bowies.This is another reason to always photograph guns prior to restoration.
Tom Patton
Caveat Emptor

 

[davy]

What you say may be true Tom .. but not all are done so and that does not discount others that may well be otherwise. Wheat & chaff I reckon.

The part that makes it ring true to me is the part where it was bought from a non-antique person ... someone who would not be in the faking business. :hmm:

Davy

 

[Okwaho]

Davy, I wouldn't include Fred's gun in the fakes category I mentioned.First of all this gun is not the type fakers produce.The condition as found and the fact that in top condition it wouldn't be a high dollar item remove it from suspicion.A Walker Colt or a top grade Bowie would be another matter.There have been some awfully talented artisans down there ready for buyers hungry for top grade antique arms especially those connected with famous "owners" or happenings.
Tom Patton

 

[whitedog333]

Yep, when Flayderman's Antique American Firearms Price Guide got around, the ever acending prices of Colt S.A.A.'s, Springfields, Winchester's, Sharps, Walkers, Pattersons, & especialy Confederate lemat's and the like suddenly caught the attention of crooks world wide. That's why it's so important for anyone who collects or starts to purchase these items study the many books out on each subject. I've seen guy's at auctions buy Italian Colts from crooked auctioneers. Ya got to read, study them at gunshows, read some more and then compare.

 

[Okwaho]

I couldn't agree more and I've seen some really scary guns.I had a little knife blade several years back with a broken tang that I hated to throw away.I had a carving knife with the blade held in with a pin so I knocked the pin out and stuck the little blase in tapped it tight in my vise and poured melted pewter in,should have used lead since it greys better than new pewter,played with the antler handle with commercial grade iodine and Kiwi shoe polish{the refinishers favorite}and a little leather dye and it looked pretty good.The blade already looked good so didn't have to do much there.I went to a quality KY Rifle show and laid about 10-15 really OLD primitive knives and that one. Guess which one all those people picked up first.Yep you got it.Like I said,some of these can be scary as Hell.Your points are well taken, study all you can BUT just handling the old ones is really critical.
Tom Patton :bow: :hmm:

 

[davy]

Here are some more picts of the cuts or slashes on the rifle barrel ..
tell us what you think .. more, better images of this area to come! :thumbsup:

Davy

 

[Okwaho]

I don't have a clue. I've seen an awful lot of boogered up barrels over the years.They could be anything and by the way the front sight doesn't look too old to me.I don't think I've ever seen an old barrel with that type sight as original equipment.
Tom Patton

 

[whitedog333]

Tom, read my earlier post where I told how I'd had the remnants of the old silver sight replaced. The pictures of the barrel are bad and fuzzy. I've posted the details of what's going on in The Alamo Film Site under Weapons and Tactics. There are four cuts in the barrel near the muzzle. They were originaly open. Two deep cuts from powerful downward strokes. Two lighter cuts from what appears to have been back handed strokes. The angle of the cuts appears to indicate that the person with the blade was below and to the left of the rifle's muzzel as the barrel was pointed down. The barrel being to the right of the man with the blade from the point of view of the rifleman. The line of axis of each cut, when extended out, intersect at a point that would appear to be the shoulder of the person wielding the blade. This "suggests" that the rifle was pointed downward and the blademan was below the muzzle. Could this have been an encounter over a wall? Eight or nine years ago, while I was restoring the rifle and before I'd spoken to the surviving widow of the man who gave it to me about it's history, I thought nothing of the cuts and carefully peened the protruding steel that stuck up on one side of each cut back down flat again. This is the lighter surface to one side of each cut. The upper side was left smooth when the blade cut away from it. The cuts were not welded shut and are quite evident to the eye. I wish now that I'd left them alone, but at least the evidence of the blade is still there. It appears that a steel blade was used to cut into the iron barrel. All cuts were above the line of the stock. Anyway, it's intersting. Fred

 

[Okwaho]

Fred,I missed your replacement of the sight and the cuts on the barrel are to say the least very curious and your hypothesis is as good as any.I have always thought and said that this gun could have a very interesting past.The problem is in proving it. I once had a chance to buy at a little estate auction in South Central Tennessee really back in the boonies a rough old 1849 pocket model Colt missing the rammer. The family tradition was that Frank James traded it for a night's lodging on his way to or from North Alabama where he was charged with and later acquitted of robbery.The problem was again the matter of proof.It went for $20.00 or $25.00 which was about the gun was worth but I could have never proved the provenance.
Enjoy
Tom Patton

 

[whitedog333]

Tom, you're right about proving such a scenario. That isn't a problen here however because I've no goal in mind necessitating absolute verification. It's enough for me to be able to have the rifle to ponder over. It was one in a million to have been lucky enough to have come upon the rifle as I did. It could've wound up as a pile of junk in the guy's closet had I not chanced to have been working at that job, been there that day, and had the conversation that we did. I only took the job because a buddy of mine couldn't take it. So, I've got a neat rifle that may or may not have been in the Texas War of Independence.It seems to lean that way though and I'm having a good time just holding it while I think about those turbulent days and wonder, what happend to the items captured by the Mexican forces. If it was a murder trial, I think that the circumstantial evidence would be intriguing and influential to a jury. It's exciting to think about what might have transpired. It's interesting ebough to keep me from wanting allow the rifle to get away from me again like I did before. Tom, what should a vintage front site look like? Certainly smaller I would think. I had an original Kentucky target rifle once that had an ivory front sight that was quite small. Fred

 

[whitedog333]

I've just taken the rifle apart and have found a letter "J" stamped on the inside of the side plate, inside the buttplate, underside of the trigger guard and on the inside of the patch box lid.Anyone know who this could be?

 

[rzimpleman]

I am resurrecting this old thread if I can. I have added a very early Leman rifle to my collection that I believe is pre 1840, or one of the earliest that is documented. The rifle has a Kentucky rifle-style patch box exactly like Davy's. It has the double set triggers and ribbed trade-style rod holders. The lock, I believe, was originally flint, but changed out later (later 1800s) for percussion. Its a great piece of history and does give credence to Davy's rifle as being a contracted trade rifle before Leman adopted the ubiquitous circular cap box and standard furniture. This piece came from the Larry Ness collection (South Dakota), which was one of the most documented trade era collections.