Lemat bore size??

I am thinking about buying a Pietta Lemat. If I do, I would like to order the appropriate wads at the same time, but I am not sure just what that would be. I have seen references to the bore size as 20 ga, .615 (same thing), and .650 (which would be half way between 20 ga and 16 ga.

If there is someone out there shooting this pistol, could you tell me what diameter wads you are using? I am not new to muzzleloading, but have absolutely no experience with smooth bores.

Thanks

 

[LeMat1856]

hello,

per cabela's and another lemat owner, the correct i/d is .645 and the wads/cards to use are .655 - if you can find them.

this works out to between 17g (.659) and 18g (.647) for cards/wads.

check www.circlefly.com for the full chart of choices.. remember, bore size is .010 smaller than card/wad size.

also look at track of the wolf to see the three possible types of materials to use: overpowder, fiber wad, overshot.

there is some difference of opinion as to whether or not the fiber wad is actually necessary for this short barrel, but i use them (lubed) just to be sure.

of all, the overpowder and overshot are the most important.

it's a blast (literally) when you finally get all 10 chambers ready and firing.. nothing beats a lemat for raw firepower.

~daniel~

 

Thanks. A quick check at Track of the Wolf and Circefly indicates that 17 ga is as close to .655 as I could get. Is that close enough?? It is only .004 oversize. Like I said, I have no experience with smooth bores, so I don't know just how much leeway one has with wad size. I would assume that slightly oversize is much better than slightly undersize.

I wonder way there is so much confusion about the bore size of the Pietta Lemat? It is almost always referred to as a 20 ga. But 20 ga wads would be way too small.

 

[madcratebuilder]

I just ordered 17ga for mine. You defiantly want the overshot card tight. If you load both barrels, the shot could shoot loose after nine rounds of .44.
I made a ramrod for it too, that tiny toothpick they give you looks like it would bend very easy, plus it's very short.

 

[LeMat1856]

hello joe,

i'll be honest to a fault with you: there is a small startup investment in owning any bp pistol and the lemat is the same with a little more.

you will need cleaning supplies (i bought cabelas "field kit" and it is great); you need powder (2 kinds - 2f for the 20g, and 3f for the .44); you need lead rounds (i use .454 hornady box of 100, and .27 #2 buck shot [comes in 5lb box}); you need a supply of cotton cleaning patches (i use 2" round).

for the 20g you will have to buy a special attachment for the ramrod .. get the 10/32 thread 20g attachment if you use it with the kit - $2.95 from wolf or www.thegunworks.com) because the included ramrod is more of a novelty than a tool.. it is too short for loading the shot cards and has no handle.. the field repair kit has a solid 3 piece, brass ramrod of which you can join just 2 for both cleaning and loading and includes a brass brush for scrubbing and a .44 cleaning jag as well.

you might want to get a ball starter (again, cabelas has a nice wooden, short handle one for couple bucks).

you need lubricants (i use birchwood casey synthetic gun oil and the cleaning kit comes with a great tube of super lube).

you will need a powder measure (again, i got cabelas black powder starter kit which has that plus a nipple wrench plus a capper plus lots of other stuff).. one plastic flask comes with the black powder starter kit but you will need another for the second powder.. the way it works is that you move powder from the can to a flask and then pour from the flask into the measure.. this way - at most - only the amound in the measure can spill or accidentally ignite.. my second is a cva 5oz black plastic from... cabela - $5.

you will need #10 remington percussion caps (once again, cabela had 1000 caps for $45+).. one word of widsome here - buy your caps and powder from the same store because the batf / hazmat agency adds a $20 fee for shipping dangerous materials *per package* - not per item.. i get my powder from www.grafs.com; shop around for the best prices.

you will need cleaning fluid (the field kit has a small quantity - 4oz - i got another 8oz bottle from cabela [*there are dozens of brand names and formulas for this, so pick one you like and go with it].

i also recommend a loading stand because trying to hold this 3 1/2 pound monster in one hand and load with the other is... difficult at the least.. go to www.dixiegunworks.com and search for that - it's wooden, stands upright, and has a brass hinge - $16+ [don't get the cylinder loader model !]; what else....

oh, right the wads.. yes, in truth the lemat has gone through several "revisions" from its inception in 1856 [.42, .35, .44, .36 with "an approximately 20g" smooth bore under].. i think as a happy medium someone just started calling it "20g" because that was close enough.. also, the first run came from france [which were not up to j.a.lemat's expectatons] and later england.

i actually use: a .626 by 1/8" nitro overpowder card then a .647 x 1/2" lubed fiber wad then 1oz of buckshot then a .659 x .03 overshot card.. so, first dump in 20-25 grains of ff goex real black powder, then the nitro card, then the wad, then the shot, then the overpowder card.. piece of cake, right ! ! i have used 16g (.672) overshot cards and felt wads when all others were out of supply.. this is not terrible because they are only plyable, but trying to cram 1/8" nitro card of that size into the barrel could be very, very difficult.. i would stick to either 17g or 18g for those.

in the cylinder i use: 15-20 grains of fff goex, the a 1/8" lubed felt pad [available in bags of 100 from everywhere, including cabelas] then the .454 lead ball then a glob of bore butter.. ooops, almost forgot the bore butter.

to keep the burned residue somewhat softer and more easily removable we add a product that is non-flammable and semi-liquid.. i say that because there are again dozens of versions of this mixture, everyone has their favorite, and i currently use t/c natural lube bore butter [cabelas $8].. it is added onto the top of the lead round so that it fills the small space around the ball... for two reasons: lubrication and to prevent hot sparks from jumping into another chamber causing "chain firing" - all the rounds go off in an uncontrolled reaction (major disaster, as you can imagine).

cleaning the lemat is not really difficult but must be done after every single day at the range.. also, it doesn't hurt to run the cleaning rod with wet cotton patchs up and down the bores right at the range to begin this cleaning process and keep things from getting caked onto steel barrels.

after cleaning, dry eveything thoroughally, and apply generous amounts of lubricants and i add some of the bore polish that is in the cleaning kit right into the barrels by another cotton patch.. this prevents them from drying out and possibly rusting.. what else....

oh, cabelas has a beautiful range bag for a mere $50 that i just couldn't fit into my bugdet, but it helps to have a large carry-all so you don't leave something important behind.. at a minimum, go to cabelas 'bargain cave' and get the 14" padded gun case [$5] because they arrive in a cardboard box which doesn't work very well at an outdoor range.

minor addendums: plan on some strange things happening during your range experience.
1) a design flaw in dr. lemat's original spec's still exists [talk about accurate reproductions !].. your ramrod/loading lever might pop out of its holder after a shot or two.. there seems to be no universal solution, so be creative.. i've found a black twist tie from the grocery store helps.

2) also a design flaw, the "takedown lever" on calvary models might actually fall out of its slot after a round or two.. the current solution is to buy either a navy or army model [which doesn't have this lever] or slip a thin piece of paper into the slot and then force the lever back into position.. this is especially important because when this lever is down, the upper barrel can twist left or right and be out of position when you fire the next shot - honest as a heart attack.. it happened to me once.

3) tools: guns use their own type of screwdrivers, so if you are going to work on your lemat, get a good quality set of those.. pipe cleaners and q-tips are good for getting into the tiny spaces.. do not use 3-in-1 oil.. these common lubricants actually turn to glue when heated to the temperature of gun fire..

i use a flat wooden stick to push the #10 caps onto the nipples just before firing.. the reason is that if they are not seated far enough down, they will not fire the first time.. you'll scratch your head and say w-t-f is going on, and the answer is just recock and try it again... bang !! and everything is ok..

occasionally the 20g barrel will do this and a cap might even fire but no "thunder"... hummm. probably the small passage into the barrel is clogged.. remove the nipple, run a pipe cleaner soaked in alcohol in and out, and try again.. make sure the nipple itself is clear as well.
(**wait at least 20-30 seconds after the failed cap before starting this procedure.. sometimes there is a delay and then the chamber actually does ignite**)

remember you're dealing with 1859 technology and it wasn't computer aided design..

often detonated caps fall into the crevaces around the hammer and under the cylinder after they explode.. this can appear as if the gun won't cock or the cylinder advance.. keep a small flashlight and dental pick handy to clean these out.

and lastly, hearing and eye protection are required at all ranged.. you can spend $2 or $200 as long as it works.. for that final touch, i added a sweet pair of shooting gloves from www.uscalvary.com for a mere $16.. they have dozens to choose from and it does help your grip thus your accuracy.

 

[mykeal]

The above should be a sticky for all shooters of this strange but captivating gun.

Well done.

One small point: in, I think, the 6th paragraph (it starts with, "You will need a powder measure..."), you mention pouring powder into the gun from a flask; I think you meant from a powder measure. We generally think of flasks as large containers of powder, and pouring powder directly into a chamber from a flask of that definition is a serious mistake.

 

[LeMat1856]

.
. nov 20 / 07:35

correction: my overshot card is 16g (.672)

and i mention cabelas alot because (1) they have the best, no hassle return policy of all, (2) you get "cabela bucks" for every purchase which adds up to enough for something extra [like the 8x21 binoculars in the bargain cave $8 or whatever], (3) they had the lemat and were the only store i knew of *at that time.*

now i use many many other sources because there are literally dozens of shops with the same items at better prices, check around, ask questions here, and do your homework.

also, we have an organization for muzzleloading called the national muzzle loading rifle association - nmlra.. they publish a magazine and have a membership program that is... often discussed here in rather opinionated debates.. regardless, look into joining it and getting the first year subscriber rate for only $20 [regular is $35 or $40].

~daniel~
ps. half the fun is finding a little gold mine with everything you need and then getting their catalog and spending all day circleing items for next month.

 

[LeMat1856]

"..then pour from the flask into the measure.. this way - at most - only the amound in the measure can spill or accidentally ignite.."

this is what is see... #6.

my flask is only 5oz... read again and see if you still find a mistake.. i have been known to make one or two on occasion.

thank you, dr. mykeal, for your kind words.. sadly, i couldn't get back in time to polish the logic... it seems to bounce around inconsistently, but i was falling asleep at my desk after being up for 36 hrs and... well, you get the point.

~daniel~

ps. finding the right cards and wads was probably the most frustrating part of my entire quest.. it's rediculous because this is what pietta has in the manual:

p 23 "...place an over-the-powder wad (preferably of cork)... [t]he over-shot card wad is the last major operation. push one corner of the wad down past the muzzle and collapse the rim of the wad slightly." cork ? size ? arriva derchi, mi amore.

 

[mykeal]

Looks good to me.

 

[LeMat1856]

.
. nov 20 / 10:35

mykeal, hoof-in-mouth strikes again !

sjoe is a 3 year veteran of this forum, flinter and percussion shooter, and major hunter....

here i am running off like "mr. bigtime" to a guy that knows more about this stuff than i ever will.. there should be a red flag icon for :yakyak: to people who already have advanced skills by those that don't.

see what 36 hours without sleep does...!

i made many other mistakes anyway.. good to know that someone is proofing my blabber.. (though it really is a pretty good a-z for a newbie to bp *and* the lemat.)

i do have a question for you:
are you a gunsmith ? do you know how and where could i go about getting into it without a lot of $$ ?

~d~

 

[Zonie]

Isn't wanting to be a gun smith in San Francisco kinda like wanting to be a Tailor at a nudist colony? :hmm: :rotf:

 

[LeMat1856]

.
. now 20 / 15:55

zonie,

that's soooo funny - not !

actually, i have been to two nude beaches here.. i was, unfortunately, the only one there, ha, ha, ha!!! then, out of nowhere, a tall tanned babe from hong kong or taiwan just came strolling down the sand without a care in the world... woooops..

i can't print the rest.

honestly, i see sf as virgin territory and/or the front lines.. i go to the v.a. medical center and see burned out ghosts who were there and now have been pushed aside because they feel all alone - and probably are.. all they need is something to join, some association with others who talk the ".223, full auto, jammed breech" talk.. somewhere they can feel like warriors again, not spayed and neutered psychopaths who "killed for a living" in 1968.

black powder can do that.. it's a therapy.. gunsmithing is just the start.. i want an entire store that sells nothing but bp weapons and supplies.. it's time to take back the "beach." i'll only die once, but i'll be damned if i'll live like a puppet to these homo-lesbo-fence jumping-milktoast-lemmings.

in this city of 750,000 there is one (1) functioning gun shop and they have nothing - absolutely nothing - for bp..

i actually want to go all the way - open my own store that sells nothing but bp weapons and supplies.. now if only i had a million bucks or so.....

if i could learn gunsmithing, i could at least make some $$ to supplement my ssdi income.. sooner or later i may not even have enough to live like a "normal" human being if my medical and living expenses keep going up.. i can't do much else, so why not give this a try.. tabor's gun supplies is close to sf and he takes months to fill orders for even the simplest 'smith tasks.. if i could learn the basics on my own, he could teach me and i could be an apprentice (part-time anyway).. beats selling newspapers on the street corner.

i'm hooked bad.... this lemat changed my whole world.......!

~daniel~

 

[LeMat1856]

zonie,

two and 1/2 clicks.

i see what you mean, but mine is so close to being 100% synched that the second and third click actually sound like one longer cliiiick.

when the bolt is engaged, it is *r o c k* solid.

i'm amazed because it's a 15 year old piece...!

very cool for $150 + spring(s).

~daniel~

 

[LeMat1856]

zonie,

you won't believe what i found on youtube - videos by american gunsmith institute (agi), brownells gunsmith tips, and gunsmithing by midwayusa.

all are free samples of the "paid certification programs" and i saw a guy in a wheelchair doing this.. hell, i can still walk without a chair, so if he can do it, so can i.

check it out sometime.

~daniel~

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Isn't wanting to be a gun smith in San Francisco kinda like wanting to be a Tailor at a nudist colony? :hmm: :rotf:

Yup. You won't make much money, but the view is nice. :rotf:

 

[LeMat1856]

do you realize how cold it is in the sf area ?

our average is 50-55 with westerly (off the ocean - inland) winds of 5-10mph.

there are about 3 days each year that it's warm enough to even swim in this area let along git buck nekked.. now, southern ca.... that's a whole new ball o' wax.. you got whole colonies down there...

picture this: grandma and grandpa playing tennis in skin......... :barf:

this ain't called the land of fruits n' nuts for nothing.

~d~

 

[madcratebuilder]

One small point: in, I think, the 6th paragraph (it starts with, "You will need a powder measure..."), you mention pouring powder into the gun from a flask; I think you meant from a powder measure. We generally think of flasks as large containers of powder, and pouring powder directly into a chamber from a flask of that definition is a serious mistake.

I use a measure but I see my Walker flask is designed to pour directly into the cylinder. I think safety was an after thought in 1847.

 

[madcratebuilder]

i actually use: a .626 by 1/8" nitro overpowder card then a .647 x 1/2" lubed fiber wad then 1oz of buckshot then a .659 x .03 overshot card.. so, first dump in 20-25 grains of ff goex real black powder, then the nitro card, then the wad, then the shot, then the overpowder card.. piece of cake, right ! ! i have used 16g (.672) overshot cards and felt wads when all others were out of supply.. this is not terrible because they are only plyable, but trying to cram 1/8" nitro card of that size into the barrel could be very, very difficult.. i would stick to either 17g or 18g for those.

daniel, try some loads with your wad cut in half, to 1/4 " thick. I seemed to get a tighter pattern that way.
I got to start taking notes at the range, with 17 and 19ga cards and wads for the lemat and howdah, i forget what I used be time i get home.

 

[mykeal]

.
. nov 20 / 10:35

mykeal, ...
i do have a question for you:
are you a gunsmith ? do you know how and where could i go about getting into it without a lot of $$ ?

~d~

I am not a gunsmith, at least not professionally. I know a couple very good ones and cannot imagine myself having that talent. I have taken the time and money to learn how to maintain the guns I own; major repairs and modifications I leave to the pros. I could, with training and a large investment in tools, be a mediocre professional. I have no such ambition.

That said, I have no recommendations for those who wish to follow that vocation, except to say that it's clearly worthwhile to invest in high quality tools and machines. Attend a school first and see if it's really what you want to do.

 

[Old Charlie]

I bought one of thease guns five or six years ago NIB. It was unsafe to shoot, the cylender did not line up with thr barrel It was way off.
I E-mailed the people at Pietta with my problem. They told me I was just a big cry babby and to kiss off. I sold the gun at aloss, tell the buyer what was wrong wit it.
After the way I was treated by Pietta I would never buy from them again!
Old Charlie