Lies it's all a pack of lies

[Rickey Brown]

The amount of hides it takes to make a set of skins. :bull: I think it is a conspiracy to cover up the fact that elk and deer are getting smaller. The amount of square feet it takes is way under estimated. It couldn't be my ever expanding waistline. :nono: The GF is making me a new elk war shirt and a set of deerskin leggings and I ordered the recommended square footage and had to order more. After two extra pieces were sewn on she said she knew what dress she would wear to powwow next year. If she had been finished it would have been "POW" straight to the moon Alice. I guess u have to give up :surrender: and admit there were no fat Indians or fur trappers. Anyone else suffer from this malady?

 

The GF is making me a new elk war shirt ...?

Are you an American Indian?

 

[Rickey Brown]

no just a trapper out in the mountains too long adopted by the Crow

 

[necchi]

Careful with the War shirt thing.
NDN culture is still very current, and when one dabbles as a non-native in things that still have sacred value you can offend folks and not even know it.

It's your choice of course, but here in Minn I live and attend Rendezvous in areas that are home to several different bands, I just have respect to not do or display things that a white man shouldn't have unless gifted.
Again, most of that is a local thing and lessons learned from friends.

 

[Rick Son]

Yea Ojibueys over there :shocked2:

 

[Rickey Brown]

I apologize to any offended I should have said a shirt made like Native Americans would have traded to a trapper. It's just an elk hide shirt. The point was a joke on my expanding size and how much more skins it took

 

[VEARL]

Don't worry about it to much. I personally get offended if I don't do what others tell me to do. If they get offended....sorry about that.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I was really puzzled by the offense comment. What was it? "fat indians"? Sight of a fat white man?
We are way to pc sensitive these days. There was a documentary on tv recently about the lives of indians on reservations. Fat was the norm.
BTW, my elk skin breeches have kindly grown with me over the years. Durable and comfortable as long as the temps are not too hot or too cold.

 

[Black Hand]

I apologize to any offended I should have said a shirt made like Native Americans would have traded to a trapper. It's just an elk hide shirt.

Regardless, avoid the hide shirt. Cloth was far more popular and readily available. Hide shirts, when worn, were usually (not always) for some ceremonial purpose.

 

[Rickey Brown]

in the time period I portray around 1830 I beg to differ for a free trapper on his own hook

 

[LaBonte]

I apologize to any offended I should have said a shirt made like Native Americans would have traded to a trapper. It's just an elk hide shirt.

Regardless, avoid the hide shirt. Cloth was far more popular and readily available. Hide shirts, when worn, were usually (not always) for some ceremonial purpose.

Not necessarily - in the RMFT era Osborne Russell for one notes the use of hide shirts and Robert Campbell stated to Capt Stewart that once they reached Crow country he would get some hide shirts there that would be better than cloth. Also bucksin clothing, including shirts was quite common amongst the Spanish peoples and the trappers who head quartered there and despite "common knowledge"there was a lot of interaction between the southern based trappers and the northern ones. So for the post 1822 RMFT era skin shirts can be quite well documented. (and no I don't have the exact quotes ready to hand).

As for the whole "war shirt thing" it's in fact a mis-nomer (a modern collector's term mainly) and has been way over interpreted as such. The correct terminology is more like "honor" shirt and not every shirt was or is an honor shirt even when heavily decorated - this is per my friends amongst the Blackfoot, Crow, Shoshone, Ute (my daily neighbors), Hunkpapa, and Cheyenne.

 

[LaBonte]

as an example - this is a decorated hide shirt circa 1830's (most likely Cheyenne or Kiowa), but it is not and never has been a war/honor shirt......

not everybody in the RMFT looked like they walked out of an A. J. Miller print (which is LATE period RMFT)

 

[Rickey Brown]

Thank you :thumbsup:

 

[necchi]

Oh your absolutely right, there are many many hide shirts, my point simply was that a "War Shirt" can have different connotations.
This is a War Shirt;

And without a big detailed study, here's a basic primer about the differences tween War Shirt and Hide Shirt; http://www.nativeartstrading.com/warshirts.htm http://www.nativeartstrading.com/frontier_jacket.htm

I meant no offence to Henry nor took any, I just pointed out there can be issues amongst some peoples and it can make your rendezvous experience more fun if you don't have 4 ****** off folks standing in your camp asking what/why your doing something.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Y'all have completely lost me.
Who is offended and what offended them?
Is a shirt by another name still a shirt?
I'll never forget an experience we (wife and I, mostly wife) had years ago.
We went to the Museum of Natural History in Chicago to photograph items in their extensive 'indian' section. I was a professional photographer at the time and took a bunch of equipment to get good pics. I took a number of shots of a squaw in her dress, including close-ups for details. We obtained materials and my wife labored long and diligently making as exact a replica of that dress as possible for herself. When it was done we went to a ronny. The first person she encountered there said, "They (meaning indians) didn't make them that way."
Will the expert in the crowd please stand up?
Personally, I think no one is.
Using Miller paintings for authenticating is worse than a joke, IMHO. Unless you believe dogs, back in the day, were taller than tee-pees and most tee-pees had only three poles, etc. As an artist using artistic license he might have been almost as good as the average ten year old. But as a documenter of the times, a total zero.

 

[necchi]

Dude, no-one is offended here.
You go ahead and make a "shirt" like the photo I posted and adorn it as such, then put it on and come to the local Pow-wow. Bring a walking stick with a Turtle, a Wolf, a Crane and a Crow on it, hang a single colored ribbon on it of either Red, Black, White or Yellow, Oh and bring your drum.

If you do that, the point that is lost on you will quickly become apparent.

Do what you want. I have a little more respect.

 

[Rifleman1776]

If you do that, the point that is lost on you will quickly become apparent.

Do what you want. I have a little more respect.

I am still at sea on this. The "point" is completely lost on me. Are not all people, including indians expected to show respect for others, even those trying, however clumbsily, to emulate a period in time? Or are we (whites) the only ones who have to be careful not to "offend" others?
Never mind responding, I'm bowing out of this thread before it goes too far downhill.

 

[Rickey Brown]

as I have said elsewhere, we are all just adults playing dress up, cowboys and Indians, fur trappers or colonialists. None of it is real, just enjoy the little diversion. I was just poking fun at myself and pointing out that be sure how much material you would need because we are sometimes bigger than we like to think

 

[Many Klatch]

Yeah, I have a buddy that wears leather pants that take about half a herd of cattle to provide the leather. He used to get by with a single deerskin.

As long as you are in a low humidity climate leather is great. Here in the Midwest with humidity and temperature both in the 90's, wearing leather is like wearing warm slime. Linen for me thank you.

Many Klatch

 

[Rickey Brown]

in the south and east I go to an F&I persona and wear more cloth but when I go out west or winter I tend to do the fur trade. I'm making these from elk split so they are lighter and cooler. I'm headed to McFadden, wy so maybe the weather will cooperate. I haven't used my fur trade stuff in awhile and it didn't fit anymore. I think that stuff about smoked skins not shrinking is a lie also :hmm: I know I haven't gained any weight