Limits of Hard Cast Roundball when hunting

[Nuthatch]

I'm confused, are you shooting 100% Bismuth, which isn't an alloy, or are you shooting something like a Bismuth/Tin Alloy? Rotometals sells Bismuth/Tin alloy in a 58/42 Bismuth/Tin, 55.5/44.5 Bismuth/Tin, and 40/60 Bismuth/Tin ratios.

The simple answer to your question would be to take a scale and weigh the ball that you're using. Compare it's weight to a known quantity, such as an all lead round ball of similar diameter. Then decide. For example, a .440 lead round ball is about 128 grains, but probably not what you want on an elk or bear. A .490 round ball weighs about 177 grains and would work on Elk and Bear... so where does your ball fall between those two weights? You really can't count on lead round ball deforming a significant amount, as the sphere sheds velocity so very fast in flight. A lighter projectile will start out faster than the all lead ball, BUT it will also slow down inside the animal faster, due to less mass than the all lead ball, but nearly the same friction. So as you have found, worry on shot placement, and original diameter.

LD

I use the rotometals alloy. But I think you misread my question (or maybe I don't understand your answer). I'm not looking for academic information. I'm looking for real-world experiences with an analog to Bismuth roundball -- hardcast lead. There's experience-a-plenty with pure lead for hunting. But pure lead expands. Seems that it expands to about quarter-sized a lot of the time. That's a very different dynamic than hardcast, which is all punch and no expansion. Bismuth alloy will absolutely punch through whatever critter it hits -- no question there in my mind.

I've had 2 1-shot kills with roundball -- one with a bismuth ball and one with hardcast lead. Very different shots though. The bismuth ball was a frontal shot at about 15 yards on a deer in the lower neck area. Deer dropped immediately & was dead in seconds. I recovered the ball down in the femur while butchering -- hardly a scratch on it. The hardcast lead was on a 50-lb javelina broadside punched perfectly into the heart & clean through at about 60 yards. That pig hardly knew he was hit -- ran at the shot but not far. He just needed time to lose some blood in his brain before he collapsed. Thankfully, he didn't go far. But there was no blood trail at all. Granted, there was hardly any time for the blood to pool up inside & start leaking out. Especially since his heart was wrecked & couldn't pump anymore. But had it been a liver shot or something less than ideal, I don't know if I would have been able to recover the animal. Heck, it took me several minutes to find him where he laid even though I watched him go down.

So what happens if I take this up a notch & chase elk or larger bears (I get opportunities sometimes) with a .50? Am I likely to give up a blood trail? Should I be stepping up to a larger caliber like a .54, .58 or .62? Or is the .50 still an adequate diameter?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

So what happens if I take this up a notch & chase elk or larger bears (I get opportunities sometimes) with a .50? Am I likely to give up a blood trail? Should I be stepping up to a larger caliber like a .54, .58 or .62? Or is the .50 still an adequate diameter?

There are too many variables to answer this.

I'm suggesting that deformation of the round ball is not the primary manner that harvests the game in our case, but instead it's the ability of the round ball to reach vital areas, and in some types of shots, to exit, are the key. This is an inertia question influenced by mass. Going through both lungs with an entry and an exit wound tends to shut the animal down fast, but not always. Two holes in theory = 2 locations for causing a blood trail, plus coughing by the animal. A shoulder shot needs enough umph on impact to shock the animal's nervous system and shut the animal down, no exit wound.

A lot of guys use the broadside shot going for both of the lungs, and simply cannot tell you how much deformation happened, since they don't recover the round ball, and if it passes between ribs going in and coming out, likely didn't deform much at all. Other guys use a shoulder shot, where the ball impacts into one of the thickest bone junction in the animal's body, and they get great deformation from soft lead..., but the guys using the same shot and casting from wheel weights aren't complaining that shoulder shots fail for them.

I usually get does, but my last buck was at 40 yards. He had escaped from foxhounds on the adjacent farm, so was pretty fired up by adrenalin, and slowed to a walk as he came into view. He stopped broadside to me, looking over his shoulder at his back trail, and I hit him with a .530 soft lead round ball with a muzzle velocity of 1500 fps. He was standing on a slight hill, and behind him was a derelict barn, so I had an excellent backstop. I found him two hours later. OH the soft lead ball had gone through him as I found it in the barn wall, so it was a pass through. His slight elevation from me and my slightly higher than usual shot placement, took out both lungs, but left lots of chest cavity to fill before he started bleeding externally. Adrenalin alone kept him moving that 100 yards. There was no blood trail. He dropped 100 yards from where he'd been hit and no blood trail. In theory I should've seen him fall within a few yards of where he'd been hit.

So you're going to need to check the ball weight of the alloy that you use, and your muzzle velocity, plug that into a ballistic program and use .070 for your bullet's ballistic coefficient, and see what that mass and velocity are doing at different distances, and see how much velocity is shed as it flies, then figure out if you are comfortable with that..., and go from there. I'd suggest that is better beginning than a lot of anecdotal information that in reality has a lot of extra variables.
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LD

 

[Crazdgunman]

These laws exist to stifle hunting, and that’s it. Leaving that ridiculous state was the best decision of my life.

That said, a well placed patched ball over fifty caliber or so is reliably deadly on big game. It’s a non-issue.

 

[Rancocas]

I've taken quite a few deer with a patched .50 (.490) lead round ball. I cast my own and don't discriminate as to where I get my lead. Much of it is wheel weights. So, my round balls are hard.
Most of the deer I've taken have been through and through, broadside shots. I could not recover the ball. One nice size buck, however, I took a quartering shot, from the rear hitting it behind the last rib on the left side. The ball ranged up through the deer's body and lodged under the hide in the neck. That ball, after traveling 25 or more inches through the buck, did not flatten or mushroom whatsoever. It did have some deformity apparently from hitting bone.
That particular buck ran about 50 yards before it fell. A few of my deer have dropped on the spot, but most have run 50 yards +- with a double lung shot.
I have taken one hog of about 250 pounds with the .50 round ball. Shot broadside through the lungs the pig ran off into a thicket. I waited about a half hour and then cautiously trailed it. In less than 50 yards I found the pig. It had lain down facing its back trail, but it had died before I came up to it. I did not attempt to recover the ball, but I recall that the shot did not pass all the way through.
All of my muzzleloading shots at big game have been relatively close range, under 75 yards. Some as close as 10 yards.

 

[LongWalker]

Without checking, I think I've got somewhere over 60 big-game animals (live weight >100#) taken with hardened lead ball. Aside from moose/elk/deer/antelope/black bear/etc, I did some control shooting on wild pigs in Texas (lots of shooting opportunities). I should note here that after a few years of these experiments, I went back to shooting soft lead for hunting with rifles (mostly for accuracy reasons--I can load a tighter patch/ball combination using soft lead--but also because I preferred the projectile expand).

Roughly 40 were taken with a Brown Bess, using a ball cast in a .735" mould, with a MV ~1,300 fps. Shots were all taken within 50 yards (the bear was close enough the fur was scorched). I don't recall any recovered balls, with the possible exception of one moose (don't remember when I shot that one--the ball might have been pure lead). No animals lost, most were DRT or within a short distance.

A couple--a mule deer and an antelope--were taken with hardened lead balls cast in a .570" mould, fired from a 24 gauge Northwest gun. MV was probably around 1,200 fps (I didn't have a chronograph in those days), ranges were <25 yards, both were DRT.

The rest were taken with nominally .530" roundballs cast in hard lead, fired from a rifle. MV was `1,800 fps, ranges again were under 50 yards. No balls recovered, no animals lost.

When hunting, I generally still-hunt, so the animals aren't stirred up and shots are close; a friend describes it as "bowhunting while carrying a gun". I aim on an imaginary line that goes through the animal to and through the opposite shoulder, i.e., I want to break the shoulder on the opposite side. This puts the ball through various vital organs on the way to my "target". I've also hunted enough that I'll wait for my preferred shot, or pass and hunt another day--no Texas heart-shots, no wild-eyed shots at running game. If I do my job, worst case the animal isn't going far.

There is some fairly extensive writing from old-time hunters in India and Africa describing the use of hardened lead balls in smoothbores and rifles. They used what we would think of today as large bores and some hefty powder charges. This might be worth looking at.

For myself, if I knew I was going to be required to hunt with a non-expanding non-lead ball, I'd probably go with a .58 or .62 caliber rifle. My .54 did OK, but I would prefer a heavier projectile. I wouldn't hesitate to use a non-expanding non-lead ball from a Brown Bess or my 11-gauge double, assuming accuracy was there.

 

[ETipp]

We need more research into this topic. I believe sooner or later, lead will be banned to even own someday. A back door approach to gun control and banning hunting all in one…

That's my thinking as well. In fact, it has crossed my mind several times in the last week. With all the globalist, NWO whacko's in control, I don't put anything past them.

 

[stikshooter]

I'm confused, are you shooting 100% Bismuth, which isn't an alloy, or are you shooting something like a Bismuth/Tin Alloy? Rotometals sells Bismuth/Tin alloy in a 58/42 Bismuth/Tin, 55.5/44.5 Bismuth/Tin, and 40/60 Bismuth/Tin ratios.

The simple answer to your question would be to take a scale and weigh the ball that you're using. Compare it's weight to a known quantity, such as an all lead round ball of similar diameter. Then decide. For example, a .440 lead round ball is about 128 grains, but probably not what you want on an elk or bear. A .490 round ball weighs about 177 grains and would work on Elk and Bear... so where does your ball fall between those two weights? You really can't count on lead round ball deforming a significant amount, as the sphere sheds velocity so very fast in flight. A lighter projectile will start out faster than the all lead ball, BUT it will also slow down inside the animal faster, due to less mass than the all lead ball, but nearly the same friction. So as you have found, worry on shot placement, and original diameter.

LD

83 ranged yds out of a blind using 1 of my TC Renegades with a 1-60 twist from Bob Hoyt . Quartering in /head down feedin /broke near leg ended up behind far shoulder under hide . Ran 150-170 yds no blood on 3 inch fresh snow piled up against a cedar in a tub full of blood . Hide with head down covered hole when running , hit everything I aimed at but I would not describe this ball (LEAD) as anything less than twice the size !/Ed

 

[Sam squanch]

I try to hunt deer with the biggest legal bore size I can handle. I want the deer to NOT run a mile away, then die. My best area is 80 yards away from a road. I definitely do not want any deer I’ve shot to run out and get hit by someone driving by. Not sure if I could be sued or not over that…..but I’ve seen deer drop quickly from a smaller caliber unmentionable, and seen a friend shoot a deer with a 12 gauge unmentionable at close range with a great shot placement, only to have it run 200 yards away. Who knows…..

 

[Grimord]

Where I hunt the cover (read laurel) is very thick. Shots at deer take place at spitting distance out to 85 yards in some openings. I also do not like to track a wounded deer in this stuff as it means crawling on hands and knees in many if not all cases as a wounded deer generally heads into thick cover to escape. I have moved up to a .58 with patched round ball for my deer hunting and only take standing broadsides shots. I aim to break the shoulders as that puts a deer down almost instantly. I have taken 8 deer in the last 4 years using this shot and have never had to blood trail a wounded deer more than 10 feet. Most have dropped in their tracks. Getting the tagged deer out of the thick stuff is a whole other project.

 

[victor#0]

" I aim to break the shoulders as that puts a deer down almost instantly. I have taken 8 deer in the last 4 years using this shot and have never had to blood trail a wounded deer more than 10 feet. Most have dropped in their tracks. "

For hunting big bears with hardcast you want to break the shoulders like Grimord said.........

 

[bronko220002]

I'd say putting a .440" or larger round ball thru the lungs or heart is going to kill an animal. Finding it is another matter.
I may get in hot water here from forum members but if I believe that an animal deserves better than a non-expanding round ball like your using. A .44 or .45 caliber bullet like from Lehigh Defense or Barnes in a s....t is much more effective. If you're shooting a .45 then you can size either of these to fit the bore of your sidelock.
But like Grimrod said I'm in agreement. I love the big .58. I got one in percussion and in flint.

 

[Eterry]

Here in CA, we have to use lead-free projectiles when hunting. This includes in traditional muzzleloaders. I've heard it all so leave your criticisms of CA aside for this post -- warranted or not.

Bismuth alloy is just a hard roundball. They shoot and behave like hard cast lead where it's all penetration with no expansion. My question is who uses hard cast ball when hunting and how should I think of them relative to caliber? I've only taken a deer and a javelina with a roundball -- both were very clean kills with great penetration. Granted, my shot placement was good so just about anything would have done the job just as well.

But is that .480 ball ample for taking bigger or heavier things like larger pigs, elk and bear? I have zero questions about penetration on these -- they'll punch through darned near anything & keep going. But with the lack of expansion, is it more like shooting a .45 or a .40 -- adequate but not ideal? I'm curious to get the input of those who have hunted big game with hardcast lead and especially those who have used hard cast conicals or round ball for things like elk, larger bears or pigs.

I could opt for a conical but my (limited) experience with lead-free conicals leaves me unimpressed -- either all penetration with no expansion when shooting past about 50 yards or all expansion with limited penetration when it's up-close. This is assuming 1:48 twist driven at 1500-1600 fps.

I haven't read the entire thread, but here's my thoughts.
Most modern centerfire cartridges don't expand much more than .480. Maybe 50 cal if you get premium bullets.
I think a .480" hole thru and thru will let a good blood stream, causing the critter to collapse quickly.

I think some states have raised the minimum caliber for elk to 54. Might wanna look into that.

 

[bronko220002]

You're right Terry. You can kill a deer with a field tip if you puncture both lungs.