Little Leman marked but ....

[northstatefarms]

54ball and jdkerstetter made some interesting comments about Jamestown NC gunmakers. And this rifle having characteristics of something besides Leman. So I brought it here and will post as many pics as anybody wants to see. Thanks in advance for your informative comments.

The lock is marked Leman, Lancaster Pa., with a couple of stamped 08's on the backside.

The barrel appears to be completely unmarked. With it being 36" long, 1" width and probably 45 cal. The tang is blown off. I've got the bore soaking in kerosene now.

The inlay covers the entire halfstock. Which is also blown up at the lock. Some of the inlay is screwed in and some uses tacks. Possibly the screws added when the tacks pulled out?

The butt on a 1" grid:

And I do believe the stock is (was) good quality maple.

 

[jdkerstetter]

It is not uncommon at all to find other builders guns with Leman locks....there is even at least one documented Hawken with one. Leman had a factory that was turning out not only guns but other parts for the trade.

Google J.M. Wood rifle and the first listing should take you to a link about another N.C. rifle very simular to yours, sans inlays.

The features of your gun make it almost undeniable that it is anything other than a Jamestown N.C. rifle....the architecture, the long 3 screw tang, the inlays....some of them anyway....and the buttplate.

Try reaching out to the original poster of the link to the Masonic rifles I suggested you search for in the other post. He's in Greensboro and owns several of these guns. He may even be able to identify the builder.

Good Luck and Enjoy, J.D.

 

[54ball]

It may not be evident in the photo but it looks more like a break to me than a breach failure.

If it is indeed broken not blown, that raises all sorts of questions.

To break like that it would just about had to have been done on purpose. It was done long ago.

Why?


Was it used in a killing?
Did the Yankees bust it during the War or Reconstruction?
Mad wife?
The break whether blown or broken adds to some historical interest. I would be real hesitant in getting it repaired.

Lastly, why would a broken gun be kept for so long?

 

[54ball]

Do you have the trigger and triggerguard?

 

[northstatefarms]

No trigger or triggerguard. The story as given to me was the gun was loaded with modern powder. The concussion broke the tang off and the stock at the lock. Several small splintered pieces around the lock of wood are gone. The tang was attached to the rear stock when I got it.

Typical idiocy. The guns pieces became separated over time. I need to ask the previous owner again. And again. Maybe they were lost in moving.

Based on your comments and reading: it appears all barrels have a marking. I just need to find what little of it is left. It could be a name, initial, or roman numeral.

I also looked at the links on Masonic guns. Offhand, for Jamestown; can anybody suggest a trigger and brass triggerguard replacement?

On this rifle; the tang is straightforwardly attached to the breech plug. I'm thinking I could silver solder the tang back in place. As long as it's a wallhanger. I see in the Wood model the Leman lock. Interesting! :bow:

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. I need to continue cleaning the bore.... and then think.

Should the inlays even be cleaned? The silver?

 

[jdkerstetter]

Where were you reading that all barrels are marked? I don't know if that's the case with these Jamestown rifles but it certainly isn't with other guns....in some "schools" it's more common that barrels are unmarked than marked.

'Twere me, I wouldn't do a thing to it until I consulted a professional schooled in these rifles. The inlays especially shouldn't be cleaned.....unless you are intending on keeping it and it's what YOU want to do....after all it's YOUR gun. Some collectors want it clean, some want the patina left in tact.

Just understand that anything you do can have a big negative impact on value. Professional restoration can often have a positive impact on the value of guns in this condition, but then you have to weigh the cost of the restoration against the value of the gun, either to you or to a potential buyer.

Either way, you may want to hold off until you have it looked at at least as the value as-is may be more than you think. Some guns are so rare or desirable that they are worth as much in relic condition than others that are near perfect. As Travis indicated, it has history.

The collector I referred you to will most likely have the best advice on appropriate replacement parts, he may even have some or know somebody who does. Many of these guys not only collect guns but parts, for just this sort of thing. He may even recommend a conservator or somebody else qualified to do the repairs if that is the route you decided to go.

Take your time. Good luck and Enjoy, J.D.

 

[54ball]

What concerns me me here about the break, is that the iron is still intact. Usually when one blows due to smokeless powder or a barrel obstruction, the iron or steel will fracture or at least bulge.

From the photo I see no evidence of that.

In matters of history, you gotta go Joe Friday. "just the facts"

You can trust but verify. The PO may not know for sure, what he told you may not be fact but what he/she thought was fact.

I would consider the blow/break another part of the mystery of that rifle.

Like JD says I would hold off any work until I could have it examined face to face by someone who knows those rifles. They may be able to solve some of it's mysteries for you.

Good Luck.

 

[54ball]

My My My!

I just looked into Jamestown rifles. As for a name look for Lamb or WM Lamb stamped on the bbl..

Google Lamb and Son Rifle.

That relic you have keeps getting better and better.

 

[northstatefarms]

Last night; I slowly rubbed some of the bore oil on the barrel and used a synthetic pad to remove some surface crud. Fore and aft of the rear sight and on the adjacent octagonal surfaces. Then looked it up and down for marks of any kind. I couldn't find a single mark.

Though; underneath the crud is a nice brown/black finish.

I'm looking forward to contacting the fellow who wrote the long article on Jamestown guns. And will try later today.

I understand NOT removing any old tarnish or finish. That would be my first thought. Then you see all the Jamestown pictures and everything is all shiny and brite. :hmm:

 

[northstatefarms]

What concerns me me here about the break, is that the iron is still intact. Usually when one blows due to smokeless powder or a barrel obstruction, the iron or steel will fracture or at least bulge.

From the photo I see no evidence of that.

In matters of history, you gotta go Joe Friday. "just the facts"

You can trust but verify. The PO may not know for sure, what he told you may not be fact but what he/she thought was fact.

I would consider the blow/break another part of the mystery of that rifle.

Like JD says I would hold off any work until I could have it examined face to face by someone who knows those rifles. They may be able to solve some of it's mysteries for you.

Good Luck.

Great advice. I'm helping the PO redo his main bathroom. And until we place the potty down; I've got him hostage.

 

[jdkerstetter]

......Then you see all the Jamestown pictures and everything is all shiny and brite......

And you may end up going that route eventually too. It' just that if you don't know how to properly get there you run the risk of damaging the inlays or the surrounding wood. Some "cleaners" are corrosive so damage imparted may not be evident until later and is often irreversible.

Good luck on your journey...and Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Zonie]

For what it's worth, the tang wasn't blown off.

I'm positive that it just broke off.

There is a very good possibility that it is made of iron, not steel and iron doesn't have the strength of steel.

 

[northstatefarms]

That's what the gunsmith said yesterday. The tang was probably already cracked when it was overloaded with modern powder.

It's a little shocking to see so many trigger guards and triggers in the Dixie book: and none are made for the Jamestown rifle. With approximately 50K of them made. What is up with the lack of parts..... besides what seems obvious... Most of the 50K haven't survived?

If anybody has any parts: please let me know.

 

[jdkerstetter]

The muzzleloading parts industry caters to two main facets of the hoby....replacement parts for mass produced guns and the builder of custom guns. Not a lot of guys building Jamestown rifles right now. Who knows what the future holds....they could become the next big thing.

Point is, unless there is a demand for the parts there is just no money in reproducing and stocking them so they are not carried.

That being said, if somebody would loan you a gaurd off of an original Jamestown gun or you carved your own pattern, you could get one cast as there people out there doing it. It would cost you more than one of the ones advertised unless you had several cast up. Heck, you could even cast your own with the right equipment.

If you're patient likely you will find a suitable guard out there. You are a long way from needing it at this point.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Zonie]

Once upon a time Turner Kirkland bought up thousands of old left over muzzloading gun parts and offered them for sale in his Dixie Gunworks catalog.

Over the years their supply has dwindled and now they only show a fraction of what they originally had.

It would be worth the cost to give them a phone call at 1-800-238-6785 and describe your gun and its missing/damaged parts.
If your real lucky they might have just what you need. :hmm: