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thank you, thank you, thank you. you've saved piece (however small) of what we once were. some might say that it's just an old beat up gun and what's all the fuss about, but we know better: "God is in the details." (Mies van der Rohe).

just out of curiousity- what is in the pouch?

thanks again

msw
 
Well I have to say when I first looked at what you had there I didn't even see a wall hanger.
:bow: :bow:
That was a labor of love my friend!
As far as shooting the ole gal, it's like Zonie said make sure the niipple and flame channel are clear and test fire a round. If everything is clear she will probably go but every shot transfers that energy back too the origional break area.
My personal opinion I would hang her on the wall. The expoxy fix is only as good as the wood around it and just don't think I would risk it. He's now recovered a piece of his family history.
 
The pouch had in it what the pic shows, the balls caps and nipple pick. I did what Zonie suggested, that is soaked it with neatsfoot oil. It did soften up nicely.
 
I am as concerned about the condition of the wood stock in general, after being kept in various attics and barn loafs for all these years. There is a good chance that the wood will fail again.

Have you considered having a stockmaker use the existing stock to make a duplicate out of new wood, so that you could have a new rebuild, with the good wood to shoot? I know Pecatonica River does that kind of stock duplicating, and you could find some pretty wood there to dress up the old gun. You could then save the old stock for displaying it on the wall.

As bad a condition as that stock was in, per your pictures, I don't see you had much of any choice about removing the finish. With the poor attempts in the unknown past to glue some of the splits back together, you were going to have to expose those edges somehow. This is not a gun made by some famous maker, nor does it represent a distinctive school of gunbuilding. For those reasons, saving the old pieces of wood with the finish that was on them would be fruitless, and silly. I think you did the right thing.
 
Thank you for your kind words.I've already written the story of that first build, Iwanted to show it to the Dixie Gun Works folks at the Western Regionals last Feb.but they did not show up like they use to. It's really a tribute to Turner Kirkland. The story is still siting on the shelf.
 
Thank You you've given me the final reason for not shooting this rifle, the wood. It was so dried out that the buttplate and toeplate would not fit together, I had to trim some brass to get it to line up. If you look at the 2nd pic you can see deep in the lock mortice a brown line, that is the barrel, a chunk of wood was missing. I think I'll tell Don to hang it up and pass it down to the kids. .
 
to identify when it was repaired. I know where the rifle is now. who knows what someone may claim years from now.
 
While this is a wonderful little story, this is a great example of what not to do with "Grandpa's old gun."
Preserving the past is the main goal in old rifle restoration. Not cleaning off all of the past. :shake: There are proper ways to do this sort of thing, and this wasn't one of them.
What this gun needed was stabilization. The wrist needed fixed and any rust stabilized. The wrist should have been fixed in a way that the patina matched what was already on the rifle. The brass should not have been cleaned or filled on.
What used to be a real gem of an old Ohio rifle is now nothing but another naked and abused refinished piece with very little value. What a shame.
 
Congratulations. You took a nearly unidentifiable piece of something and turned it back into a treasured family heirloom. I'm sure the original owner would be a lot more pleased with the way it looks now than the way it looked when you started. :thumbsup: :applause:
 
Mountainman56 said:
Congratulations. You took a nearly unidentifiable piece of something and turned it back into a treasured family heirloom. I'm sure the original owner would be a lot more pleased with the way it looks now than the way it looked when you started. :thumbsup: :applause:
Wonderful, considering it was a $1500 gun to start with and was turned into a $250 gun by the end of the project....
Haven't any of you ever watched the antiques road show?
Show expert: " What you have here is a very rare 1845 thing a mah gitchie. Thing a mah gitchies like this one usually bring $40,000 on the open market."
Thing a mah gitchie owner: "OH MY GOD!"
Show expert: The bad news is you refinished your Thing a mah gitchie it and it is now worth $100 on the open market."
Thing a mah gitchie owner: " DOH!" (As he smacks himself in the forehead.....)
 
If this gun was an untouched Dickert, Verner, Figthorn or even a M. Fordney I would agree with you Mike however old guns from little known or unknown makers in fair condition don't bring $1000 let alone $40,000 in this area of the country.

Had it been in unbroken condition the most I could see it going for in this area might be $400-$500 and in its broken condition I wouldn't have offered $200 for it.

As with all things in my opinion sooner or later one has to look at the possible value of something and figure out if repairing it is worth the possible reduction in value when its finished.

In this case, I have to say that in its repaired condition I feel that it has increased in any value it may have had if the cracked stock was repaired and the remainder of the gun was left in its original condition.
Now, if it were a cracked stock "Christian Oerter".......
 
Sorry mIke, but I still disagree with you about this particular gun. The pictures show a bunch of firewood for what is left of the stock. There is NO provenance for the gun. It is not from a particular school, or a known gunmaker. Its just a common gun that could have been made any time during a 40-50 year time span. Without a specific school, or name, the gun's value as a collector's piece in its previous condition was as " parts ". Maybe $100.00. With the stock re-glued, and all the crap taken off it so that the wood can be seen, its probably worth $350-$500 as a wall hanger. Certainly, to the family involved it remains an heirloom, but now it can be hung on a wall, rather than left in a attic in pieces.

If they were to spend the money for a new stock, and to get a new nipple, and clean up the Breech so it can be fired, the gun would then be worth more than $1,000. There just are not that many original rifles left in firing condition. Hal Hartley, a noted stockmaker, in the 50s, and 60s, found his grandfather's old rifle, and restored it by making a new stock, cutting off a worn muzzle to recrown the barrel, and then reboring the barrel with tools he made. He wrote an article about it in Gun Digest( 1977 Gun Digest Deluxe Edition, P. 184) Titled, " Ol' Yellow Jacket Shoots Again. Although the photos do not do his work justice, the text makes it clear that the rifle he recovered was in almost as bad a condition as this gun was.

I think the decision to restore this gun was the right one. The Antiques you are referring to on The Roadshow, always can be ascribed to a particular maker, unless they are cheap Chinese knock-offs. I have seen people who foolishly refinished 200+ year old furniture before finding out what they had, and ruined the sale value by doing so.

That is a far cry from restoring an old gun, of unknown maker, and school. What is sad is that so many small gunmakers did not put their names or initials, or the date, on the guns they made. We would have a much more complete history of the development of arms had they done so as a matter of course.
 
Oh Boy.....this gun wasn't in bad condition. All it had was a busted wrist which isn't all that difficult to fix properly. I've seen restorations done with far less to work with.
This is a fairly significant gun that deserved better. An Ohio rifle collector could probably tell you where it was built and who built it.
I sold a Ohio gun buttstock that was only from the middle of the lock back, for a considerable chunk of change some years ago. It had no barrel, lock, sideplate or trigger guard. I have since seen it again on a collectors table with a very pretty price tag on it. And, you can't even tell where the new gun was grafted on, it all has the patina of the original buttstock now....
No big deal, too late now anyway. Point is, there's a right way to handle restorations and there is a wrong way. It would have been just as easy to do this one right.
 
I'd like to add, I'm not picking on the guy that did the work. If he would have known how, I'm sure he would have restored this gun properly as he certainly has the skills needed.
I'm hoping to educate here so everybody that's here knows the right way to restore these old guns.
 
I didn't see anything that would convince me that this gun could only have been made in Ohio. And, with no initials, no names, no dates, you are asking a lot more than can be realistically expected. Of course, there is always some crook out there, who will put a big price tag on nothing, and claim it is something, when he knows there is no evidence to prove him right or wrong.

My brother bought a gun years ago for #75.00 that was pretty much junk. It was an old barrel- we now know from various markings and examination that it dates back to the first decade of the 19th century at the latest, but could be 20-30 years older than that--- that had been on a long rifle, with barrel keys, suggesting a flintlock, used with a hand made bolster and shotgun lock to make a percussion LH half-stock rifle. The hammer was broken. The escutcheons were torn out with huge chunks of wood missing there and around the lockplate. The trigger guards is a parts piece, as is the buttplate. There is a single initial on the buttplate, but all his efforts and mine to find anyone who could tell us anything definitive about it failed miserably. He has since had the barrel rebored, to a larger caliber to get rid of deep pits in the bore, and had the stock repaired by fitting new pieces of wood, where original wood was missing. After he shot it a number of years, the breech area began to fail, and it has since been rebuilt, but not to his satisfaction. He is comtimplating replacing the entire patent breech with one made from new steel. The barrel remains the original piece that it was, except it is now a .42 caliber rifle. He has shot the rifle at the Sgt.York Chunk Gun Matches in Tennessee a couple of times, altho he is planning to use a new rifle this next March while he fixes this old gun once and for all. At best, he figures the LH percussion gun was built in the 1860-70's , based on the style and age of the lock. Its a classic " hardware store " shotgun lock, sold to replace worn out locks on DB shotguns. The stock looks like it was cut from a plank, as both sides are flat, and parallel to each other.

It would be fun to know its origins, who made the Percussion gun, where the flintlock barrel came from, and what kind of gun had it been on, etc. but that is not how guns were used " Up " in the days. Nothing was wasted, and worn out or rusted guns were repaired and used until they could not find parts, or someone who knew how to repair them anymore within a reasonable distance from home. Many percussion guns stopped being used when local stores stopped stocking percussion caps.

Mike, I know you were not criticizing his workmanship, and that you just wished that the restoration had left the original finish on it. Pictures don't show us everthing, of course, but from what I saw, and his description, I would be the first person standing in line to see how a experienced restorer solved those problems, at a cost that could be justified by the gun's value.
 
I don't know what Jim Klien charges, but he probably could have fixed it right for less than a couple hundred dollars.
I didn't see anything that would convince me that this gun could only have been made in Ohio. And, with no initials, no names, no dates, you are asking a lot more than can be realistically expected.
I had no idea of your expertise in Ohio rifles. :wink:
 
My only expertise in Ohio rifles is the time we spent trying to find out where my brother's rifle could have been made, and how old it is. The gun has been examined by more " Experts " than I can count, at Friendship, and elsewhere, in several states. For my part, I poured through all my saved articles on ML rifles, from back issues of MB, and other magazines, and books. I tried to find similar lock types, similar trigger guards, similar buttplates, etc. Stock shape was also compared, as has been mentioned. It became very obvious when the gun was first taken apart that the barrel was much older than the rest of the gun, hence the decision that this gun was made into a LH percussion rifle in the second half of the 19th century. The lock narrowed down the age to a post-Civil War, period, probably not later than 1880.The trigger has a set trigger, but to fire the gun, the set trigger has to be " Set " or the main trigger will not hold on full cock. That trigger was also used to narrow the age range of the rifle. Peter has the orginal stock, trigger guard, trigger, buttplate and lock on the gun and shows it to anyone interested when he attends matches. He has been told that the gun could have been made anywhere from Pennsylvania, to Virginia and West Virginia, to Tennessee,Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana.
 

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