load question

[gunpa]

Pyrodex has no more power than black powder. It's just as dirty or worse. I'd try Triple 7 in 3f. It is about 10 % more powerful than black but also cleaner so load accordingly.

 

[Erwan]

I'm confused because when I measure out 60 grains of FFG pyrodex powder in the brass measuring tool, and approximately 60 grains from the lee precision powder measure kit, they do not appear to be close.

Hello,
I never did trust the “LEE precision” plastic cups, but I've always trusted brass measures, this is just a personal opinion...

 

[20gaugecalvary]

OK, I think I understand... so are the lee powder cups actually measuring by weight equivalents? Is that these are not equal? My understanding was volume should be equal on the BP and Pyrodex.

 

[20gaugecalvary]

Pyrodex has no more power than black powder. It's just as dirty or worse. I'd try Triple 7 in 3f. It is about 10 % more powerful than black but also cleaner so load accordingly.

I've heard good things about triple 7... I'll try it out.. thank you

 

[Ed C.]

OK, I think I understand... so are the lee powder cups actually measuring by weight equivalents? Is that these are not equal? My understanding was volume should be equal on the BP and Pyrodex.

Yes, the cups are measuring weight equivalents for that volume. For each different powder the weight will be different according to it's density. That is what the chart provided with the Lee kit will tell you. I use the cups when reloading smokeless powders for unmentionables. They are pretty accurate to get close to the desired charge and then I trickle up using a scale to get the proper weight. I never use them for BP. Just the brass measures and spouts. You can be very sloppy with BP and not get into trouble. Not so with smokeless powders. And yes, BP to Pyrodex by volume is 1:1.

 

[Nicioli]

Hi maybe a bit off but can 4F be used in TC .45 cal. Pistol?
Thanks Nicioli

 

[20gaugecalvary]

Hi maybe a bit off but can 4F be used in TC .45 cal. Pistol?
Thanks Nicioli

I"m not sure about that, but I know it's kind of hard to come by 4F around where I'm at. I don't think the owner's manual mentions anything about 4F either.

 

[20gaugecalvary]

Yes, the cups are measuring weight equivalents for that volume. For each different powder the weight will be different according to it's density. That is what the chart provided with the Lee kit will tell you. I use the cups when reloading smokeless powders for unmentionables. They are pretty accurate to get close to the desired charge and then I trickle up using a scale to get the proper weight. I never use them for BP. Just the brass measures and spouts. You can be very sloppy with BP and not get into trouble. Not so with smokeless powders. And yes, BP to Pyrodex by volume is 1:1.

Thank you, Ed. This was the answer I was looking for. It makes sense now... I was assuming the powder cups were volume approximates and not weight.

 

[longcruise]

Yes, the cups are measuring weight equivalents for that volume. For each different powder the weight will be different according to it's density. That is what the chart provided with the Lee kit will tell you. I use the cups when reloading smokeless powders for unmentionables. They are pretty accurate to get close to the desired charge and then I trickle up using a scale to get the proper weight. I never use them for BP. Just the brass measures and spouts. You can be very sloppy with BP and not get into trouble. Not so with smokeless powders. And yes, BP to Pyrodex by volume is 1:1.

A very good explanation of how the Lee system works.

Another note on pyrodex is that while they are 1:1 in volumetric usage ratio, they are not in weight ratio. Pyrodex is 30% lighter than BP (generally speaking since not all BP is the same in weight/volume ratio). So, for example, if you were to duplicate a pyrodex load with BP by matching weights the pyrodex load would be hotter and would not likely shoot anywhere near the same as the BP load.

Weighing BP charges is a choice made by some shooters for their own various reasons. I see some of the pistol competitors at my club shooting pre-measured charges. One of them explained to me that his charges were so small that volume measures could vary by a percentage that he felt effects his scores.

 

[SDSmlf]

Thank you, Ed. This was the answer I was looking for. It makes sense now... I was assuming the powder cups were volume approximates and not weight.

The Lee kit uses cups of different volumes measured in CCs, and their chart lists the weight in grains of various powders that each size cup will hold.

 

[reddogge]

What do you recommend for my rifle? I have the 2F pyrodex powder for rifles... I was thinking 60 grains. Why do you use FFFG, isn't that more for pistols?

I normally shoot FFG on my .50 rifles but .45 and under I shoot FFFG and I would recommend Swiss powder over Pyrodex any day of the week.

 

[MAC1967]

4F is not optimal for a 45 caliber. It is a flint pan priming powder. Almost no one uses 4F for a load, though I know some have played with it for small calibers of .32 or under. You want 3F black powder or the Pyrodex or Tripple 7 . . . real Goex, Swiss or Shuetzen. However, black powder is not easy to find in many parts of the nation. Most of us believe it is superior to substitutes, but Pyrodex and Tripple 7 etc do work.

 

[Erwan]

4F is not optimal for a 45 caliber. It is a flint pan priming powder. Almost no one uses 4F for a load, though I know some have played with it for small calibers of .32 or under. You want 3F black powder or the Pyrodex or Tripple 7

That's how I do, only for revolvers (.36 or .44) and as a primer for pans, but remember that the T7 is softer than the Swiss #2 or French PNF2 mostly used for the small caliber between 32 to .50 cal. a bit too hot for the .50" and more if the barrel is a bit long: burn's too quickly for me...

Edit: the Pyrodex and the T7 don't work well with the flintlocks, and you frequently have to use 4Fg for the pan and a bit like as duplex load to ignite them...

 

[SDSmlf]

4F is not optimal for a 45 caliber. It is a flint pan priming powder. Almost no one uses 4F for a load, though I know some have played with it for small calibers of .32 or under. You want 3F black powder or the Pyrodex or Tripple 7 . . . real Goex, Swiss or Shuetzen. However, black powder is not easy to find in many parts of the nation. Most of us believe it is superior to substitutes, but Pyrodex and Tripple 7 etc do work.

Pre-internet the Lyman Black Powder Handbook tested and listed 4F pistol loads. I have personally removed powder from 1860s era cartridges that had powder finer than what we call 4F today.

And as far as blackpowder being not easy to find in many parts of the nation, where in the lower 48 do you live that blackpowder cannot be delivered to your door?

 

[Nicioli]

Hi I´m in Brazil a place that´s a real nightmare for all things gun related. The only BP avaiable here is a crude stuff that is used for african cults. Then I saw someone selling apparently a better product and when I asked the seller about the granulation he said it was 4F, hence my question
Thanks and regards, Nicioli

 

[tenngun]

What do you recommend for my rifle? I have the 2F pyrodex powder for rifles... I was thinking 60 grains. Why do you use FFFG, isn't that more for pistols?

Generally the bigger the bore the larger the powder grains, 1F for muskets, 2 for rifles three for pistols and 4 for priming
But, that’s not hard and fast rule. 3 f will often burn a little cleaner, and a mite cheaper as in a .54 65 grains 3 f will produce the same velocity as 70 to 75 grains 3 f, so you save ten grains per shot get an extra shot every ten shots.
I don’t think any ml has one perfect load. But to find you best shot you experiment with different powder charges, different patch ball combos until you hit that sweet shot
Some folks find 2f load that shoots best for them and others a three f, same gun but different patch ball combo and charge
2 f produces lower breech pressures, so it was preferred back in the day, todays steel barrels can handle any black powder you can dump down it, provided it’s not crazy like a 1/10 pound.
One of our members that post pretty often shoots 4f as a primary charge. You just have to experiment to get the right load.

OK, I think I understand... so are the lee powder cups actually measuring by weight equivalents? Is that these are not equal? My understanding was volume should be equal on the BP and Pyrodex.

almost. You shoy volume for volume pyrodex with black, though it’s a bit lighter.
A charger is marked in grains per volume but a charge of two f will lay a bit less for volume then three f or four and a bit less then one and half

 

[20gaugecalvary]

Generally the bigger the bore the larger the powder grains, 1F for muskets, 2 for rifles three for pistols and 4 for priming
But, that’s not hard and fast rule. 3 f will often burn a little cleaner, and a mite cheaper as in a .54 65 grains 3 f will produce the same velocity as 70 to 75 grains 3 f, so you save ten grains per shot get an extra shot every ten shots.
I don’t think any ml has one perfect load. But to find you best shot you experiment with different powder charges, different patch ball combos until you hit that sweet shot
Some folks find 2f load that shoots best for them and others a three f, same gun but different patch ball combo and charge
2 f produces lower breech pressures, so it was preferred back in the day, todays steel barrels can handle any black powder you can dump down it, provided it’s not crazy like a 1/10 pound.
One of our members that post pretty often shoots 4f as a primary charge. You just have to experiment to get the right load.

almost. You shoy volume for volume pyrodex with black, though it’s a bit lighter.
A charger is marked in grains per volume but a charge of two f will lay a bit less for volume then three f or four and a bit less then one and half

Thank you, I've got it figured out now... I'm going to try it out this weekend.

 

[cynthialee]

4f shouldn't be loaded in your Patriot
pan charging and small caliber pistols only

 

[Nicioli]

Thanks Cynthia regards,Nicioli

 

[TFoley]

Once finding a volume of which ever powder that works, just carve yourself a measure from wood or antler, large diameter copper tubing or a piece of bamboo, whatever. Put it on a cord and attach it to however you carry your kit.

Grenadier, here, made me a couple of custom powder measures for my two favourite loads - 60 and 70gr of 2Fg. One is for the Musketoon, and the other for my original Pritchett Volunteer rifle - out of a tree in his backyard, and I treasure them because of that fact. They both throw within two or three grains of the weights he determined and they look good in my shooting kit.