Loading 5?or loading 6?

[Half-Cocked]

Yes and I was told that for some reason, one of the 6 chambers is always a little "off". It will be the one that throws a slight "flier" from a bench rest. I had no idea if true, so I tried it out.

So I had a pair of Pietta ".44 Confederate Navy" revolvers...which are just brass framed copies of the 1851 Colt, but in .44. I also had an 1858 Remington (Armi San Marco) and a CVA .36 "sheriff's" revolver. So after testing, and the Navy revolvers I had extra cylinders. Sure enough..., the same chamber in each of the tested cylinders threw the ball just a tad outside the rest of the group. So if four of the holes in the target were touching, the fifth hole was just a bit away from the other four. SO..., I marked that chamber on all of the cylinders, and the Piettas (which were for SASS matches) I simply pulled the nipple out of that chamber. That way no accidental loading of one too many chambers, no doubt as to where to lower the hammer during a stage-of-fire, and the other five shots were the most accurate of the six.

No idea if the higher quality cap-n-ball revolvers do the same thing or if other models do the same thing.

LD

Great idea taking that nipple out. I can't tell you how many times I put a ball on a chamber that I meant to keep empty that had no powder in it.

Worst still is trying to keep track of that empty chamber with the ball sitting on top. Inevitably I forget which one it is I add all six caps to the nipples. Then of course when I fire one of the Caps goes off with nothing coming out. That's when I sit and always wonder was that the empty chamber or did I just have a misfire? Not good.

 

[Griz44Mag]

As Griz44Mag said, Blackie Thomas has an extensive playlist on cap and ball revolvers on youtube. Helped me a lot when starting out. Definitely check him out, also duelist1954 is great too.

 

[toot]

back in the day they made both 5 & 6 shot cylinders for a reason. so what good is a 4 shooter & a 5 shooter. safety aside?

 

[Carl in France]

Load six. Seriously why buy a six shooter and use five?
If your gun is worn and is not working properly mend it and the pins are worn? ditch it and get another.
If you want to carry and worry about the safety of doing so with six then ...wake up! Stop carrying a percussion revolver and carry centre fire or really you are just playing with guns.

 

[Half-Cocked]

Somewhere I heard the best safety is the one between your ears.

My sig has no safety and a double action trigger that feels like a single action. Would I carry it everyday probably not. Would I be scared handling it with one in the chamber probably not.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The 5 shooters had a smaller cylinder that allowed for a slimmer profile for the frame and allowed for a slightly more concealable firearm. Still better for carry purposes to leave the hammer down on an unloaded cylinder for an open top Colt replica. Note, my brass framed Navy Arms "Reb" revolver does not have the safety pins between the cylinders.

 

[B P Arn]

The 5 shooters had a smaller cylinder that allowed for a slimmer profile for the frame and allowed for a slightly more concealable firearm. Still better for carry purposes to leave the hammer down on an unloaded cylinder for an open top Colt replica. Note, my brass framed Navy Arms "Reb" revolver does not have the safety pins between the cylinders.

I don't think any of the original Colt revolvers had the "safety" pins. I wouldn't worry about it.

I would never even consider a cap and ball revolver for self defense.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

I don't think any of the original Colt revolvers had the "safety" pins. I wouldn't worry about it.

I would never even consider a cap and ball revolver for self defense.

LOL you think wrong.

 

[B P Arn]

^^^ LOL; that wouldn't be the first time!

 

[Carl in France]

Great idea taking that nipple out. I can't tell you how many times I put a ball on a chamber that I meant to keep empty that had no powder in it.

Worst still is trying to keep track of that empty chamber with the ball sitting on top. Inevitably I forget which one it is I add all six caps to the nipples. Then of course when I fire one of the Caps goes off with nothing coming out. That's when I sit and always wonder was that the empty chamber or did I just have a misfire? Not good.

If you are loading 5 then buy a stainless nipple and replace the 6th and then you can see at a glance which is the empty cylinder.

 

[SDSmlf]

If the timing is off (bolt is late) the cylinder can spin past its stop point and the hammer can fall on a pin flattening it.

I was not talking about the timing being off (bolt being late), rather when the bolt hits the lead in just ahead of the slot (as it has to, to make sure it catches the slot at all cocking speeds), the soft steel on the Pietta and Uberti cylinders quickly peen and the burr narrows the slot, not allowing the bolt to fully enter the slot. When this happens the cylinder is not fully locked up by the bolt and goes past the slot. Some recommend fitting the bolt to the cylinder slots. I simply remove the burr to keep the slot to the factory correct width to fit bolt.

Here is a Pietta cylinder that has been loaded and fired less than a dozen times. Burr on edge of slot should be obvious.

Here is a photo of a Ruger cylinder, with near identical bolt timing. It has over 10k rounds through it, yet no burr. Much tougher steel.

Here is a photograph of the tool I use removing the burr in a Pietta cylinder slot.

 

[Gun Tramp]

I simply remove the burr to keep the slot to the factory correct width to fit bolt.

Your post is immensely helpful, thank you; the first image matches what my Uberti 1851 is doing. I explained the issue to Dixie, returned it to them, and they graciously replaced the cylinder and of course it's now done the same peening after twenty-four rounds. Could you explain your burr removal tool?

 

[Griz44Mag]

I was not talking about the timing being off (bolt being late), rather when the bolt hits the lead in just ahead of the slot (as it has to, to make sure it catches the slot at all cocking speeds), the soft steel on the Pietta and Uberti cylinders quickly peen and the burr narrows the slot, not allowing the bolt to fully enter the slot. When this happens the cylinder is not fully locked up by the bolt and goes past the slot. Some recommend fitting the bolt to the cylinder slots. I simply remove the burr to keep the slot to the factory correct width to fit bolt.

Here is a Pietta cylinder that has been loaded and fired less than a dozen times. Burr on edge of slot should be obvious. View attachment 45147

Here is a photo of a Ruger cylinder, with near identical bolt timing. It has over 10k rounds through it, yet no burr. Much tougher steel.
View attachment 45149

Here is a photograph of the tool I use removing the burr in a Pietta cylinder slot.
View attachment 45153

Makes perfectly good sense - if your gun has worn parts repair it so it functions correctly.
IMHO - not using the firearm the way it was designed to be used is a failure on the owners parts.
If the firearm is not capable of being used as intended, then fix it or replace it.
I like the tool - what is it made off?

 

[SDSmlf]

Your post is immensely helpful, thank you; the first image matches what my Uberti 1851 is doing. I explained the issue to Dixie, returned it to them, and they graciously replaced the cylinder and of course it's now done the same peening after twenty-four rounds. Could you explain your burr removal tool?

The only modern cap and ball cylinders I have seen not made out of dead soft steel and not subject to this kind of wear were made by Ruger.

I make the tool out of a common high speed steel tool blank like you would use on a lathe. The one in the pictures below was made from a 3/16” square blank 2-1/2” long. First thing I do is grind the end of the blank to the width of the slots in the cylinder. I use a surface grinder, but if you are careful you could do it with a bench grinder. You want the sides parallel to each other to help guide the tool in the slot. The width of mine are about .005” under the width of the slot. I then add radii to the top and bottom of it with a bench grinder so it works like a scoop in the slot. I use this tool to clean the cylinder slots every time I use the gun. If not, the burr gets larger and takes more effort to remove. If removing heavy burrs you may want to put a handle on the tool for better control.

Possible source for a high speed steel tool blank
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/02603124

 

[Eterry]

If your at the range, load six. If you're carrying it hunting etc, load 5, or as JB Books said, go with your gut.

I saw a reenactor who had an 1858 NMA accidentally discharge in the holster. He rode in our horse drawn wagon while we rode to meet the ambulance at Ft. Sill. He was being treated by a Veterinarian and was having a very bad day.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

If your at the range, load six. If you're carrying it hunting etc, load 5, or as JB Books said, go with your gut.

I saw a reenactor who had an 1858 NMA accidentally discharge in the holster. He rode in our horse drawn wagon while we rode to meet the ambulance at Ft. Sill. He was being treated by a Veterinarian and was having a very bad day.

I was not talking about the timing being off (bolt being late), rather when the bolt hits the lead in just ahead of the slot (as it has to, to make sure it catches the slot at all cocking speeds), the soft steel on the Pietta and Uberti cylinders quickly peen and the burr narrows the slot, not allowing the bolt to fully enter the slot. When this happens the cylinder is not fully locked up by the bolt and goes past the slot. Some recommend fitting the bolt to the cylinder slots. I simply remove the burr to keep the slot to the factory correct width to fit bolt.

Here is a Pietta cylinder that has been loaded and fired less than a dozen times. Burr on edge of slot should be obvious. View attachment 45147

Here is a photo of a Ruger cylinder, with near identical bolt timing. It has over 10k rounds through it, yet no burr. Much tougher steel.
View attachment 45149

Here is a photograph of the tool I use removing the burr in a Pietta cylinder slot.
View attachment 45153

Your timing is off, the bolt is dropping late.

It should drop in the groove or very slightly before.

 

[SDSmlf]

Your timing is off, the bolt is dropping late.

It should drop in the groove or very slightly before.

It is dropping slightly before the groove, that is where the preening is taking place. Not hitting the far side at all. Not sure what you are looking at???? The burr gets larger from repeated preening until it blocks the bolt from gettin into the groove completely and the cylinder skips by. Once the burr is large enough the bolt will not fit into the groove even with the cylinder and bolt removed from the frame. I see this on the dozen plus open tops and the multiple cylinders for each that I own.

 

[Gun Tramp]

Thank you SDSmlf. You are very talented.

Your timing is off, the bolt is dropping late.
It should drop in the groove or very slightly before.

Smokey, do you know of a text that explains the correct timing of these? Been looking unsuccessfully...

 

[Gun Tramp]

The groove before the bolt notch.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

It is dropping slightly before the groove, that is where the preening is taking place. Not hitting the far side at all. Not sure what you are looking at???? The burr gets larger from repeated preening until it blocks the bolt from gettin into the groove completely and the cylinder skips by. Once the burr is large enough the bolt will not fit into the groove even with the cylinder and bolt removed from the frame. I see this on the dozen plus open tops and the multiple cylinders for each that I own.
View attachment 45169

Your bolt should be hitting the beginning of the lead (ramp) or slightly before where the energy of it popping up can be dissipated. Then, the hand finishes rotating the cylinder and the bolt, which now is making contact with the cylinder, can slide nicely into its little groove.

Your bolt is popping up too late and smacking into the actual notch area itself, and the peening is very problematic in this region as like you have experienced the resulting burr can wreak havoc with the tight dimensions of the notch.

Now yes, with the Italian guns these burrs are just going to happen. It’s soft metal like you said. Deburring the bolt and reducing the oft-heavy bolt spring can help sometimes. But by making the bolt drop a bit early you can basically move the burr to an area where it isn’t so problematic, that being the lead or just before it on the cylinder exterior wall. It can leave a short drag line but the condition is self limiting after a while and function is not impeded in any way.

A properly timed gun will ensure the bolt engages the notch properly with a slow or fast cocking motion and by allowing the bolt to pop up before the notch and preferably right at the start of the lead, you eliminate your above issues.