Loading from flask question

[ChrisHarris]

She did learn several valuable lessons.
Don't panic.
Keep it pointed down range.
Keep it under control.
EXPECT it to go off at any time.


I put the rifle down and we talked for another 5 minutes about what had happened and how to handle a misfire.

I'm kind of safety obsessive too. Thats part of the reason why I drive 47 miles to shoot at a traditional muzzle loading club. We ONLY shoot traditional muzzle loaders. No other firearms are allowed. No i-lines, no denterfire weapons of any kind.. nothing but traditional muzzleloaders. I feel a lot safer around those guys as opposed to a regular range that allows all types of firearms.

 

[crockett]

I am not defending a position- so please don't take this the wrong way :grin: but to some extent I am interested in real life experiences. As I said- I wouldn't want a powder charge poured from a measure blowing up in my face even though the consequences would be far less than a flask blowing up. That point on waiting. Good advice. After I fire six rounds I usually grab a scope and look at my group so that may account for a safety measure.
In any event, what we need to know is if anyone has heard of an incident of pouring from a flask, or even a powder measure, where there was an explosion due to an ember, etc. in a cap and ball pistol. We all know that such things have occurred with single shot pistols and rifles. As I said, shooting combustible paper cartridges is very hazardous in my opinion because there is still ash and residue left in the chambers and I always wait and pick out any residue before reloading. On the wad or cream of wheat- it seems that normally that all gets blown down the barrel but if others have had different experience- please share. And, on residue build up- I've never noticed anything with the fffg black I use but on substitute powders- if there remains fouling in the chambers- then that could hold an ember. We need to consider whether residue can or can not get blown back into the nipple itself and that residue hold an ember. I want to be a safe shooter but the way I see matters taking safety measures where not needed doesn't really make things any safer. On another thread the issue was raised about hunting with an uncapped nipple and to cap the nipple only when game was spotted. That is certainly safer and would work on a bean field but in a wooded area at 50 yards the deer will see the movement- you will never kill a deer hunting that way. To me, sitting in a tree stand with a capped nipple and taking the cap off before descending the tree is a "hazard" I can accept.
so...
1. Single shot rifles and pistols NEVER load from a flask.
2. Cap and ball with paper cartridges NEVER load from a flask and clean out the chambers after every round.
3. Cap and ball with powder/ball/lube- awaiting any mishaps anyone has ever heard about before making a final decision.

 

[Rifleman1776]

crockett, many 'safety' measures are only that 'measures' or procedures to prevent injury from situations where mishaps are possible. A good example is the rule to keep muzzles up while on a range except when pointing downrange towards the targets. In fact, I have never heard of an incident where someone waving his rifle around horizontaly shot and injured another person. That doesn't mean we should scrap the rule. Muzzle up is a safety measure and a good rule. These "rules" also instill discipline in shooters without which any shooting sport would be very hazardous, indeed.

 

[arcticap]

Some information that's provided about C&B safety procedures may be somewhat contradictory.

From page 8 of the CAS range officer training course manual (page 12 of the PDF), there isn't any mention of a requirement to wait for any specific period of time in order to clear a misfire or to recap a cap & ball revolver during competition.

COWBOY ACTION SHOOTINGâ„¢
Range Officer Training Course
(Level II)


FRONTIERSMAN CATEGORY

The Chief Range Officer shall be prepared for the unique problems associated with cap and ball revolvers. These items include potential “hang-fires,” “cap only” ignition, and a complete failure to fire. In a “cap only” ignition and failure to fire, the Frontiersman should be allowed to continue firing the remaining chambers. The Range Officer shall not confuse these occurrences as potential squib loads. Misfires on the firing line by Frontiersman will require the Chief Range Officer to accommodate clearing the gun after completing the stage. The Range Officer shall always require these clearances be accomplished at the firing line. It is acceptable to recap and discharge the still loaded chamber(s) or simply uncap the charged chambers.
It is not permissible to seat the caps on a revolver’s nipple using the gun’s hammer. Percussion revolvers may only be capped at the loading area or on the firing line. If a particular stage requires a one shot reload, the sixth chamber of percussion revolvers may be charged at the bench and then capped “on the clock”, either before the first round is fired or after the last round is fired. A complete reload for percussion revolver shooters is handled by staging a loaded, uncapped revolver down range or switching uncapped cylinders and capping on the clock.
http://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/RO-II-VerL-2012.pdf[/quote]

However in the interest of safety, there are C&B instructions, tips & warnings stated in the following excerpts which includes how to safely load from a flask and about waiting 2 minutes to clear a misfire. The author also mentions to never fire an antique revolver which some would disagree with if an antique were in good condition.

3. Place your index finger over the tip of the loading spout on the powder flask and press the release lever on the flask. Turn the flask upside down and release the release lever. Return the flask to the upright position. You now have a charge of powder held in the spout of the flask.

4. Carefully pour the powder into the chamber to the immediate left of the loading lever. Manually turn the cylinder one position and charge the second chamber in the same way. Repeat the charging process with the third through fifth chambers.

* Like all shooting activities, utmost care and attention must be paid to all safety considerations when shooting percussion revolvers. If you snap a cap that does not fire a chamber that you believe to be charged, keep the revolver pointed down-range for a full two minutes before moving the revolver to a table for unloading ”“ you may be experiencing a “hang-fire” which is a slow burn in the cap, and may fire the chamber late. This is archaic technology that was improved over the years, so your experience with modern revolvers may not apply in all circumstances.

* Be sure that your revolver has cooled before re-loading. A single hot ember remaining in a chamber has the potential to cause a catastrophic accident and injury.

* While shooting replica percussion revolvers is a fun and safe pastime, as long as proper care is taken, under no circumstances should actual antique percussion revolvers be fired. The metals used in the mid-nineteenth century were not as strong as modern metals to start with, and they will have degraded in the hundred and fifty years since they were forged. Do not shoot antique revolvers of this age.
http://www.ehow.com/how_4525155_load-percussion-revolver.html[/quote]

 

[PRM]

I've been shooting C&B revolvers for over 30 years and have always loaded from a flask with a measured spout.

My rifles and muzzle loading pistols are a different story. Always used a measure for them.

I can see where competition matches have rules on revolvers, and you need to know the rules for the range your on.

I'll even concede in theory a separate measure would seem to be safer than a flask for revolvers. But, I was taught to use a flask. It's always worked for me, doubt if I change at this point.

 

[aeatwood]

IIRC, CAS rules say for a "reload", you can load six chambers, and only cap 5, and just cap the 6th for the "reload". Which is FREAKIN' INSANE. It is a multiple discharge waiting to happen.

 

[Robert Egler]

Yeah, that's the rule, and I agree with you, it's a really bad idea!

 

[biliff]

IIRC, CAS rules say for a "reload", you can load six chambers, and only cap 5, and just cap the 6th for the "reload". Which is FREAKIN' INSANE. It is a multiple discharge waiting to happen.

FWIW, Most everybody I know caps the sixth chamber before they start shooting the pistol. And yes I know doing it that way isn't spelled out in the rules.

To keep somewhat on topic, loading from the flask at a CAS shoot is the norm. There's a fairly long period of time between shooting and loading due to all the post stage tasks that need to be done first and a really long time between shooting strings. Figure each revolver fires 30 rounds in 5 to 6 hours so it's not exactly the same shoot and load scenario as a target shooter.

 

[crockett]

Thanks to all- Yeah- since the hot gases from shooting one chamber can lick into an open/uncapped nipple I'd say loading six and capping five is A REALLY BAD IDEA. I've done a couple of matches and had to use a seperate measure with a cap and ball revolver- it's okay but like others I was taught to load from a flask, a lot of instruction manuals and magazine articles have photos, etc of loading from a flask, so it would seem safe. In theory- I'll concede the seperate measure would appear to provide an added level of safety. As I said- on a combustible cartridge you'll have residue left in the chamber and that's a hazard. And, as I said, even pouring a powder charge from a measure into a chamber- I sure wouldn't want that to explode- even if it doesn't blow up the flask BUT it seems to me folks have now been shooting replica cap and ball pistols for a long time- 50 years or so and if there were any incidents of loading from a flask (for cap n ball pistols) causing an accident- it seems word would have gotton around.
On the competition shoots. The preferred pistol is a single shot but you are often allowed to use a cap and ball revolver as long as you load one shot at a time and you must use a seperate measure- range rule that applies to all firearms. Like I said- that's okay with me and I understand the rule- a range officer doesn't need to be trying to keep tabs on who is shooting a single shot- muzzle loading pistol and who has a cap and ball- all he wants to see is folks using that seperate measure.
This thread will likely dry up in a day or two but I hope everyone keeps the idea in mind for the future- if anyone ever hears about a problem loading from a flask for a cap and ball pistol- please let us all know. I sure will if I ever hear of such.
What kinds of hazards are we willing to accept? What about putting an exposed flask on the bench right under where the pistol is being fired- with all the flash and flame- I always cover my flask before shooting.

 

[Many Klatch]

I just started shooting C&B revolvers seriously this year. I was loading directly from the flask. After reading this thread I have decided to use a separate measure to pour the powder into the cylinders. I know a guy who had a horn blow up in his hand. The hand works now, sort of, but it took a year of operations to fix the damage of a 1/8 of second of mistake.

Many Klatch

 

[Rifleman1776]

I was loading directly from the flask. After reading this thread I have decided to use a separate measure to pour the powder into the cylinders.

:thumbsup: :applause: :applause: :applause:

 

[Robert Egler]

I use combustible paper cartridges, a lot quicker to reload.

 

[crockett]

Could you share the circumstances of the horn blowing up? Thanks.

 

[Many Klatch]

Crockett, the guy had a horn with powder in it that he thought might be too old to work. So he poured out some and tried to light it off. It wouldn't light, so he started to pour some more on when the powder finally did light off. Unfortunately he had the horn open and close to the powder when it went off. They managed to take some bone from his foot to replace the damaged parts of his hand.

Many Klatch

 

[Rifleman1776]

Was he competing for the Darwin award? :youcrazy:
Hard to believe some people's actions.

 

[Many Klatch]

He just had a case of momentary idiocy. We have all done that sort of thing. His cost him a month in the hospital and multiple operations. We all need to remember that gunpowder is dangerous and the fact that we have messed about with it for years and not been hurt doesn't mean that gunpowder won't hurt you the moment you forget something important.

Many Klatch

 

[crockett]

What kind of firearm was it? A single shot pistol/rifle or cap and ball revolver?
On the complacency; I read a few years ago that the Russian army was using combustible cartridge ammo for their tanks. The ammo is made in India. This tank crew got used to the stuff being around and one guy started smoking. And, yep, they all got permanently smoked big time.
While we are on the flask/ percussion revolver issue- do the cut off devises on flasks differ? In other words- are some potentially safer than others?

 

[PRM]

The only ones I have seen are fairly descent in stopping the flow of powder to load or measure from the flask. I doubt seriously if they would stop an ignition if the circumstances were right. Even with mine closed, its not a complete seal. I have owned a total of 5-6 and they all are pretty much the same.

 

[Glenfilthie]

I don't load from a flask but I see no problems with it IF you take precautions.

I don't see any advantage to it, mind you. I use a measure and tap it several times to settle the powder in it and make it more consistent.

 

[roundball]

It seems to me if the valve in a flask is leaking, its defective, worn, etc...should not be leaking at all.