loading prb with cleaning jag

[roundball]

There's obviously something wrong with this story.

I use Treso combination cleaning/seating jags...excellent quality concave face brass jags with steel threaded inserts for strength.
I don't carry them on my underbarrel rods, just carry one in a pocket with a nylon muzzle guide slid onto it when hunting.
For weekend range sessions I have dedicated rods per caliber...one with a jag and one with a puller.

When I occasionally use a ball puller at the range, the rods are strong 3/8" solid brass with a large wooden ball on top and in spite of my size and strength I have to put some real mojo on that brass rod to pull that patched ball back up and out.

If somebody claimed he was surprised to find his patched ball sitting at the muzzle, it wasn't because it had followed his cleaning jag all the way back up and he didn't know it...he simply started the PRB into the muzzle, got distracted, forgot to seat it, then later saw it in the muzzle and drew the wrong conclusion.

In addition, the catch-22 of this is that if it HAD been such a loose PRB combo that he didn't notice it following the jag back up, it wouldn't have followed the jag back up at all, due to being so loose.

 

[Swampman]

That's not what happened. What I said happened, happened. Exactly like I said it did.

Knowledgeable shooters don't load a tight patch/ball combo. Using a "cleaning jag" as a ramrod tip is very dangerous.

 

[Stormrider51]

Mark,
I am envious of other places that have more re-enactments. We used to have the two I mentioned in my local area. The Gonzales "Come and Take It" is still there but not what it used to be. There used to be an agreement between the Texas Army and the Chamber of Commerce in Gonzales that we would march in the parade on Saturday morning, do the re-enactment that afternoon, and in return we got to have a shooting match Sunday morning down on the Guadalupe River at Independence Park. The match started with cannons and ended with pistols. Just being there Saturday night with the entire army camped along the river made it all worthwhile. Everything but the re-enactment is gone, a victim of political correctness and concerns over lawsuits.

The Battle of Plum Creek was re-enacted as part of the Chisholm Trail Roundup. That one is just plain gone as far as I can tell. More political correctness.

I used to belong to a club called the "Travis Volunteers". We held an annual money-raising turkey shoot on the club range located on the San Gabriel River northwest of Austin. We used real turkeys. They were behind a railroad tie barracade with only their heads and necks showing. The range was 70 yards and all shots were offhand. Like I said, it was a moneymaker for the club. Anyone who doubts the accuracy of a muzzleloader in competent hands would have been amazed at how many shooters, men and women, could shoot the head off a turkey at that range. That match is gone. I hear that the ASPCA put an end to it. Inhumane. Considering that any hit to the head or neck of a turkey with a lead ball was rapidly lethal I have to doubt that but then again who said that the "anti's" have to make sense or ever have?

I'm coming back to muzzleloading after a layoff of ten or so years and am just starting to check into what is still out there. Right now I'd say you have me beat when it comes to events.

Storm

 

[Coot]

There's obviously something wrong with this story.
In addition, the catch-22 of this is that if it HAD been such a loose PRB combo that he didn't notice it following the jag back up, it wouldn't have followed the jag back up at all, due to being so loose.

Well, just for conversation, IF you had a very loose fit ball (think seriously undersized) AND a tight fitting jag AND an oversized (too big) patch which came up past the ball and jag bands, you could run the ball, patch & jag combo up & down all day with the ball held in a pouch made by the overly large patch. That said, with properly sized balls, patches & jag, it isn't going to happen. If the rod is as hard to pull out as it is to walk down, you know something is wrong. Every time that I have had to pull a ball, it has been a real effort.

 

[roundball]

There's obviously something wrong with this story.
In addition, the catch-22 of this is that if it HAD been such a loose PRB combo that he didn't notice it following the jag back up, it wouldn't have followed the jag back up at all, due to being so loose.

Well, just for conversation, IF you had a very loose fit ball (think seriously undersized) AND a tight fitting jag AND an oversized (too big) patch which came up past the ball and jag bands, you could run the ball, patch & jag combo up & down all day with the ball held in a pouch made by the overly large patch. That said, with properly sized balls, patches & jag, it isn't going to happen. If the rod is as hard to pull out as it is to walk down, you know something is wrong. Every time that I have had to pull a ball, it has been a real effort.

:grin: yeah but all that speculation is a little like "if a frog had wings..."...people aren't supposed to use smokeless powder in any old muzzleloader either but unfortunately they occasionally do.

The theme behind this story was that the sky is falling...everybody should stop using cleaning jags immediatey as they're very dangerous.

People all over the world have used and continue to use proper sized jags to seat proper sized patched balls...that's precisely what they're made for.

 

[redwing]

You are right, I tried to let him off the hook while he could still swim. All of us who shoot at matches and hunt with MLs know that the jag is used for seating balls. They come in calibers so the balls are not deformed going down.

If a ball and patch were pulled from the barrel you would know that some thing was wrong. Loose ball, or loose brain.

I should have recalled the statement, never murder a man who is in the process of killing him self. Go for it Mark.

 

[Swampman]

"...that's precisely what they're made for."

No, they are made for cleaning barrels.

Ramrods come equipped with tips for seating balls.

The up side to all this is that the barrel probably won't explode. It will just buldge or perhaps split. If it doesn't ruin your stock then you can just get a new barrel. If you ruin the stock also then you can part the gun out on eBay and recover some of your money. An obstructed bore doesn't always put your eyes out.

 

[pcrum]

I've seen a patched ball come part way back down the bore when the edge of the patch hung up on the cleaning jag.

IMO it's a very dangerous practice.

The fellow it happened to, just happened to notice the patched ball protruding slightly from the muzzle as he was getting ready to shoot.

It seems that you'd have to have a really loose patch/ball combo for that to happen. I've used a jag tipped rod for years on my rifles.
pat

 

[Rocky Johnson]

I agree with Mark,jags are for cleaning.
:wink: Rocky

 

[roundball]

I agree with Mark,jags are for cleaning.
:wink: Rocky

Right, and combination cleaning & seating jags are for cleaning & seating.

And to claim / infer they are so dangerous they shouldn't be used because of an "alledged" single incorrect conclusion somebody drew is absurd...the user in question obviously made a mistake, pure and simple, and the sky is not falling.

Perfect analogies to aid in understanding:

Just because some idiot used 100grns of modern smokeless powder in a Renegade and blew it up like a hand grenade, also does not mean the sky is falling and that everybody should immediately discontinue the use of all MLs not designed to use smokeless powder.

Just because automobiles have wrecks does not mean the sky is falling and we should all stop using cars immediately.

The list goes on...IBM had a slogan for decades that's appropriate here: THINK

 

[Swampman]

There is no such thing as a "seating jag". They are cleaning jags. Some people wear motorcycle helmets, and seatbelts and others don't.

Just don't let people stand nearby if you wish to continue this foolish & dangerous practice.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

It's all personal preference guys but Mark Lewis has a point here. You guys are talking about how hard it is to pull a ball after you have jammed a screw into it. The screw expands the ball much more tightly into the bore. Without a screw the ball will pull out more easily than it went down because the ball and patch are fully conformed to the bore and the bore has been cleaned and lubricated. Still, one should realize there is something wrong.
I once blew a winning score at the state 25 yard pistol matches. I was loading my .36 caliber pistol with a steel rod which had a brass sleeve pressed on the tip to protect the bore. I was using precut patches and after seating the ball it required a slight tug to free the rod. I had three 10s and one 9 going but when I loaded the fifth shot that brass sleeve pulled off the rod and remained in the bore, which I failed to notice. The ball scored a 9 but the brass sleeve also hit the target in the 7 ring, making an extra hole. It was easy to see the sleeve keyholed which a ball can never do, but still they took away a ten and gave me the seven so I was out of it.
I certainly don't' want a jag sticking out past the muzzle. My rifles are long enough already and anything sticking out past the muzzle is asking to be broken and would interfere with starting a ball and cutting the patch. I like a smooth ramrod tip just level with the muzzle or 1/4" short, then when I add the CLEANING JAG I have a couple more inches of rod to hold on to.

 

[roundball]

You are right, I tried to let him off the hook while he could still swim. All of us who shoot at matches and hunt with MLs know that the jag is used for seating balls. They come in calibers so the balls are not deformed going down.

If a ball and patch were pulled from the barrel you would know that some thing was wrong. Loose ball, or loose brain.

I should have recalled the statement, never murder a man who is in the process of killing him self. Go for it Mark.

It really is funny :grin: kind of like watching a train wreck unfolding...first the engine jumps the tracks, then over time the boxcars just keep crashing in behind it, piling up the wreckage higher and higher :grin:

And a problem often seen after somebody "steps in it" and are corrected, is that they don't pause and say something like..."uhmmmmm, hadn't thought of that...maybe it couldn't have happened the way I was told after all..." Instead, they just keep piling up the wreckage :grin:

 

[Claude Mathis]

...and combination cleaning & seating jags are for cleaning & seating.

Correct. I use a jag similar to the one pictured.

The reason it is cupped on the end, is to fit the appropriate ball size. If it weren't made to load with, there would be no need for the cup and it would be flat on the end.

Also, I would think that if your patch went past the ball, far enough to engage the jag, it is way too big. If you are cutting at the muzzle or using the corect size patch, I don't see how the patch can get caught on the jag during loading.

But, having said all that, I don't care what someone else uses, nor do I desire to convince them to do otherwise. I report, you decide. :grin:

 

[Dphar]

They are also very likely to get caught on something, and snap your ramrod if you leave them installed while hunting.

Heh, heh!
I did this once back in my teenage years. Forgot..

Dan

 

[Swampman]

While I'd never call you a liar, you don't seem to mind calling me one.

I know you think it's impossible for anyone to know more than you do about anything, but you are mistaken on this subject.

I've seen a "cleaning jag" pull the ball part way back up the barrel and leave it there. It might not happen if you are driving a ball down the barrel with a short starter (like paper shooters do)but it did happen with a correctly loaded ball and patch combination.

 

[Coot]

There's obviously something wrong with this story.
In addition, the catch-22 of this is that if it HAD been such a loose PRB combo that he didn't notice it following the jag back up, it wouldn't have followed the jag back up at all, due to being so loose.

Well, just for conversation, IF you had a very loose fit ball (think seriously undersized) AND a tight fitting jag AND an oversized (too big) patch which came up past the ball and jag bands, you could run the ball, patch & jag combo up & down all day with the ball held in a pouch made by the overly large patch. That said, with properly sized balls, patches & jag, it isn't going to happen. If the rod is as hard to pull out as it is to walk down, you know something is wrong. Every time that I have had to pull a ball, it has been a real effort.

:grin: yeah but all that speculation is a little like "if a frog had wings..."...people aren't supposed to use smokeless powder in any old muzzleloader either but unfortunately they occasionally do.

The theme behind this story was that the sky is falling...everybody should stop using cleaning jags immediatey as they're very dangerous.

People all over the world have used and continue to use proper sized jags to seat proper sized patched balls...that's precisely what they're made for.

You are taking this the wrong way Roundball. It is not like "if a frog had wings" - they don't. BUT a ignorant or careless person could load with a undersize ball & too big a precut patch just as they could load with smokeless. There is nothing wrong with using the correct ball, patch & jag combo - I do and so do many others - but the key point here is that some people need to realize that there is a downside to just tossing any combination of ball & patch down the bore just as there is a downside to just tossing an unknown powder down the barrel. Do we need to stop using jags to load - not in my book. But we do need to inform people as to why some practices (not checking jag/ball/patch sizes for the gun in hand) can be risky.
:v

 

[Dphar]

There is no such thing as a "seating jag". They are cleaning jags. Some people wear motorcycle helmets, and seatbelts and others don't.

Just don't let people stand nearby if you wish to continue this foolish & dangerous practice.

You can't win.
Though to some extent this jag thing falls into a "your mileage may vary" thing and thus could be considered personal preference. But if one person pulled a ball someone else surely will as well.
Unless you are attempting to be HC. Then the jag sticking out is a no-no I suspect. Don't matter to me. I never have to wipe any of my rifles when hunting so while I always have a jag and other accessories they seldom get used in the field.
I mentioned this "expert" phenomenon to another gunsmith a couple of weeks ago and he said that people would ask his opinion of a gun, then, if they didn't like what he said they would call in their cousin or brother-in-law (an expert apparently) to tell them what they wanted to hear. We both had a good chuckle over it.

Back when I was exposed to such things I had numerous people tell me that they shot Pyrodex all the time and had never had any corrosion. If they had the gun along I would ask to see it. Most people cannot see the pits when looking at them until someone points to them and says "this is pitting". Then of course the person who points it out is a jerk for proving them wrong.

My cut patches are all slightly bigger than they need to be I suppose. It is impossible to center the ball on it anyway unless its cut at the muzzle. It takes little to catch a jag that fits over the ball and I found it was necessary to be careful not to have the patch on the jag if used on the loading rod. Since most rifles can be loaded without a starter its easy to catch a patch on a jag is used as a loading rod tip.
Like I previously stated. I seldom use my loading rod for cleaning so it seldom sees a jag. I use a wooden rod, usually larger in diameter with a jag for cleaning if at a match that requires period stuff. Other wise a 5/16" stainless rod as long as needed.
Since I always taper rods that fit the gun the "bottom" end is always smaller so it has some clearance in the rod hole. I make the tip for that that end and cup it for the ball. Sometimes I build a tip for the "top" of the rod but its designed to push against. Its nice on pistols. I put one on my 16 bore rifle's rod as well.

Dan

 

[Bill Bryan]

I use a cleaning patch on the end of my screw on jag at the range all the time. I've done it for over 40 years. I'm having a hard time figuring out how that is dangerous. A well seated RB is not going to get pulled out. I'd rather shoot through a clean barrel.

 

[roundball]

There is nothing wrong with using the correct ball, patch & jag combo - I do and so do many others.

Exactly...and the sky is not falling :wink: