Loads for .36 ?

[JEEVES]

Just picked me up a squirrel gun in .36.

What's the Min. & Max. load for PRB?

 

[Ohio Joe]

"Jeeves", Could you give us a little more information? Barrel length, barrel thickness? Is it a percussion or flint lock? What brand is it? We really need to know some things about your new rifle to offer up some humble opinions. I should have looked at the board better. It must be a flintlock if it's posted here. Still, we need some info...

 

[SquirrelsaurusR]

Just out of curiosity, what's the twist rate?

 

[JEEVES]

It's a Pedersoli Blue Ridge in .36

39" bbl with unfortunately a 1:48 twist (7 lands & grooves). I'd rather have 1:60. They use the same barrel for the .54, so this should be pretty stout.

 

[Ohio Joe]

Jeeves,,, I think I would start out with 25 grains of 3fg Goex (I like Goex) and use a .015 patch and .350 round ball. You can either prime with 4fg Goex or use the 3fg, they will both work. Use about 3 to 5 grains in the pan to prime with. You don't want to fill the pan full of priming powder, only about 1/3 full is all you need and you'll get good ignition. I would work up a load increasing the powder charge by 5 grains each time and go to no more then 50 grains... 50 grains of powder will produce 2032 fps with a 650 M/E according to Lyman... You can expect a bit better performance living in the Dakota's as your at a higher elevation and Lyman test were done at a lower elevation with lots of humidity... Keep us posted on your results...

 

[Stumpkiller]

Minimum would be to leave the powder out completely. That's why they sell ball pullers.

22 gr (a .36 pistol charge) would be a good light load. 30 grs is a normal service load, 45 gr would be a 'stout' load, and anything over 60 gr is probably not burning all the powder anyway and just salting the ground even if the gun handles it. Unburned powder being forced down the bore is an obstruction, and we all know you never want a barrel obstruction.

 

[JEEVES]

Thanks guys!

I bought this because my boys, 6 & 9, said they would try this instead of the .50's & .54's that I have. We'll try er out on Sat.

 

[Ohio Joe]

Jeeves,,, I know the feeling when your getting your kids involved in muzzleloading. If you don't mind, let me make a suggestion or two. Load light... 15 to 20 grains is all you need if they're just startin' out and it will be so mild and pleasent to shoot they'll want to do it some more... Give them a good size target where they can see the results of their labor, it'll make them and you feel good. :applause: :applause: :applause:

 

"39" bbl with unfortunately a 1:48 twist (7 lands & grooves)."
Fortunately the 1:48 twist is spot on right for the small bores.
As a general rule of thumb the 1:48 is right on for calibers .40 and smaller, with 1:60 being about dead on for the .45 to .54's, 1:70 for larger than .54. Some really BIG bores have twist rates a slow as 1:100 or slower.
Remember that twist rate is a function of bullet diameter, and velocity amongst other things.

 

[Rocky Johnson]

Maxiball is right. I think you will like the 1 &48 twist. Rocky /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Green Mountain's 48" twist works well right on up to .40. One of the guys in our club has a 42" .40 GM barrel on his rifle that shoots just fine. The depth of rifling is what makes that twist work well with the small bores.
: 48" twist in the .45 is pushing things, but with .010" depth works, even to .50, but that is pushing that fast a twist & perhaps still deeper riflng is needed.
: The trouble with some of the repro's with the .48" twist was the rifling wasn't deep enough due to button-rifling, to hold the ball from stripping with hunting-type loads; "tripping over the rifle" as Forsyth would have said.
: In the .45 and even .40 or .36, if shallow enough, would also shoot with much slower twists in the 70 to 80 inch variety, but would normally take very large charges to do it. These would require extremely high velocities to group small.
: Back in the mid 1800's, a lot of English makers, were bent on even faster twists, even in the very large bores, which wouldn't hold the ball (stripped) with even 2 1/2 drams. They still killed killed massive amounts of game, but had to be used as smooth-bores, at close range, with large charges and killed by the incredible force of large balls at high rates of speed. For accuracy, a ball stripping the rifling was an innacurate fiend for sure, but still worked at jungle ranges.
: Today, we have learned from Forsyth and other experimentors, but also screw things up from time to time, as in the shallow button-rifled fast twist barrels of the repros. Many original Hawkens had 48" twists, in .50 to .53 cal, but they also had .012" or slightly deeper rifling which guaranteed holding the ball to the grouves. That seems to be the detail not learned or ignored by TC and those who copied their idea.
Daryl

 

[Stumpkiller]

<<That seems to be the detail not learned or ignored by TC and those who copied their idea.>>

Somewhere along the trail I heard that the shallow (modern) rifling is cut with a button that forms all the grooves simultaneously, while the deeper (& fewer grooved) old style requires a seperate operation for each groove and is much more labor/machine intensive. Some of the old rifling was progressive - meaning that it 'sped up' as the ball approached the muzzle. The older style round grooves also meant that fouling didn't have corners to hide in and they were/are (allegedly) easier to clean.

 

[musketman]

In my Lyman's Muzzleloader Handbook, the closest barrel length to yours listed is the 37 inch, so I will quote from there...

.360 round ball (71 grains) with .015 patch lubed with Crisco, G-O FFFg black powder...

25 grains of FFFg 1384 fps.
30 grains of FFFg 1514 fps.
35 grains of FFFg 1644 fps.
40 grains of FFFg 1773 fps.
45 grains of FFFg 1903 fps.
50 grains of FFFg 2032 fps.
55 grains of FFFg 2112 fps.
60 grains of FFFg 2192 fps.
65 grains of FFFg 2272 fps.

 

This is pretty much what I said=- TC & Hal Sharon even tried to button deep grooves which left a rather funny, wonky looking interior, tight, loose, tight, loose, tight, loose, all the way to the muzzle, 1/8" or so apart. Buttoning a barrel only takes a few minutes to pull the button through the barrel, as taking hours to cut one. .005" is about tops for buttoning, which is a very cheap way of rifling, as you indicated. Cut and to some extent, hammer forging, is the only way of forming deeper rifling, with hammer forging being quite limited as well, like buttoning. All GOOD muzzleloading rifles meant for round ball, will have cut rifling, period. It is impossible to form a good interior with "deep" button rifling. The US1841, .54 cal (Mississippi rifle) was cut with 12 grouves, but only a few were made that way. Many of the European rifles wre cut with up to 12 grouves as well. In the States, the Government found that 3 grouves, of progresive depth to shoot well enough for military concerns, although the 5 groove was more accurate & only done for Srgent's and officer's rifles. The 3 groove was also less libel to muzzle, and land damage, from the steel rods used.
; I have never seen an original ML of the 19th century having round bottomed rifling, except for one Jaeger of possibly the 18th century. This present 'fad' came into being, it seems, in the 70's. They do the job as advertized, but aren't desired in bores larger than about .54. The problem with the round bottomed rifling, is that it takes a very deep groove to hold the ball from stripping. This gives a .50 cal, a .550 groove depth, with .025" rifling. My buddy's .75 is a Getz barrel, having this .025" rifling. He cannot fire more than 2 paper ctgs. without having to swab the bore due to the buildup of fouling. With patched ball, his accuracy is in the relm of 5" at 100yds., much inferior to my .012" rifling, .69. It is a mistake to cut deep rifling in big bores, just s Forsyth said. .012" is all that's necesary, as proven by my .69 barrel. At that. in ratio, the .012" is quite shallow, compared to the size of the bore. Even at that, if the twist was slower, as in 1 in 100" or so, shallower rifling yet would be in order.
: Deep grooves nesesitates faster rifling due to the marked up ball needing a faster spin to stabilize. That's why Getz uses 56" and states it's correct. A 70" twist .50 with .025" rifling won't shoot as well, due to the marked up ball. I tried one, custom made, and it was terrible for accuracy, 4" at 50 yds. was the best I could do. At the same time, with my Bauska barrel, 1 in 60", cut rifled, 1" hole for 5 shots was the norm at 50yds. bench. These barels wre tried on the same stock. The purtiest rifling you ever saw, that deep round bottomed rifling, but the twist was too slow for the damaged ball, just as Forsyth said it would be.
Daryl

 

[JEEVES]

Fortunately the 1:48 twist is spot on right for the small bores.

Well that's good to hear! I assumed that a slower twist was better (what do they say about assuming).

Thanks to everyone

 

I've read a lot of "stuff" over the years and the posts of good ol' Daryl always bring back to my mind the things I've read and filed away. Daryl, you, my friend, have always been "spot on". My hat is off to you sir. I won't even attempt to improve upon what has been said, EXCEPT......(hehehe....doncha jes luv it!) I've always had wonderful accuracy with a 20 gr. load of FFFg in my 36's. I didn't see that miniscule load mentioned and thought I'd throw it out there for what it's worth. Recoil and report are nearly non-existant.

I just read another article on Forsyth in DGJ and evidently the man didn't live to see his theories put to the test and proven as he died quite young, in his thirties. It is evident that the British gunmakers of the day took to heart his words regarding twist and depth of rifling. Given his youth he obviously had incredible insight and experience.

I'm an "older" codger and I just don't believe there is an adequate substitute for well executed cut rifling for PRB.

Now I can't wait til our house is finished and my books are unpacked so I can delve into my library!!!!!!


Vic

 

Thanks for the accolades, however merely passing on what I've learned over the the years. I like to back up these findings with the printed 'lore' if possible.
: Your 20gr. load, and indeed, even less power does wonders with the little .36. Taylor, my brother, with the re-lined original English "rook" rifle also shoots & likes a 20gr. charge. This is certainly a smasher for rabbit heads, as it's only me who likes to see red mist through the smoke. It is absolutely amazing with that little ball will do when driven over 2,000fps, connecting with a rabbits head at 20yds. With narey a chance to slow down much, the results are quite demontrative to say the least - or most, as the case may be.
: I'm going to see if I can take some photo's of that rifle - it's a pleasure to look at and hold. :applause:
Daryl

 

[JEEVES]

Well we went out & shot on Sat.

My boys loved it & say it's their new favorite!

Thanks to everyone