Loads for 58 Cal Muskets

[Flint1]

Hi everyone,
What loads do y'all use in the .58 muskets for target work at 50 and 100 yards? Mine is an Aemi Sport Richmond, and I've experimented with 30 grs at 50 yards and 40 grs at 100, as well as trying 40 grs at 50 yards and 50 grs at 100. I use a 525 gr minie, usually lubed with Crisco. I would also like to know what minies y'all use and the lube, and if you fill the base of the minie with lube. I've tried these loads with both FFg and FFFg--what granulation do you use? I'm just wondering what other shooters are doing, so maybe I can get some ideas. I'm mainly a flintlock rifle shooter, but need to spend nore time shooting my musket.
Thanks.

 

[Enfield1]

Hello RW1,

Nice to talk to a fellow .58 shooter. I have been shooting my Euroarms .58 Enfield for about 5 years now. I make a huge 530 grain conical bullet using a Lyman Mold purchased from Dixie Gun Works. I lube it with Traditions Wonderlube or "Bore Butter". I do not stuff the cavity of the round, I just fill the grooves on the sides. For 50 yard shooting, I seat the round atop 44 grains of 2FG black powder. This puts me dead on a 5.5 inch Birchwood Casey "shoot n see" target at 50 yards, while using a nonsupported off-hand hold. For 100 yard accuracy, I use the above combination, but with 55 grains of powder. I like to go all out when I shoot my enfield. I get into period clothing and use the proper cartridge box to hold the cartridges that I make. I think of myself as sort of a one man NSSA unit, because I have met nobody locally that shares my interest.

 

[jdstrang]

50 and 100 yards? Do we have another N-SSA member here? :thumbsup:

I use the Lyman 575213 OS in both my CSRichmond carbine and Whitney mississippi. 44.5 grains 3F by weight in the carbine, 45.5 grains 3f by weight in the rifle. You might also try 37 grains, as I'm hearing lots of success at that weight. (My son has a Zouave that eats that 37 grain load for breakfast, lunch and dinner.)

Lube is MCM, applied with the squirter-plunger thingie sold by North East Trade Co., 570.546.2061 Leaves a vapor trail that everyone but the shooter can see!

Others here no doubt will insist you start at 80 grains and load up until tears flow when you jerk the trigger, but if you want to comfortably hit things, and break them, and even knock them down if they are of whitetail size, then the loads i listed may well work for you. :results:

BTW, if you like to shoot muskets and aren't familiar with the n-ssa, well, friend, you need to be: http://www.n-ssa.org
Lots of skirmishers in your part of the country, too...

 

[ResearchPress]

I'm just wondering what other shooters are doing, so maybe I can get some ideas.

Have a read of the following article, which should give you some ideas:

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/musketry/enfieldmanagement.htm

David

 

[big bore 75]

I'm a former N-SSA shooter my old team still wants me to come back but my work schedule prohibits me the preferd lube is mcm with a .578 diam. hogdon bullet sized down to .576 and only lube the the grooves after sizing , my fun and accuracy load in my Fayetteville is 38 grains 2fg for 50 and 49 for 100 in my rifle they are devistating, and for hunting was using 80 gains of powder but that load has proved to me that it is just to much Got a doe last year that went completely through her length wise and dissapeared, finding that 60 grains will most likely do just as good a job. when all others rifles flints and other nipple huggers give me a bad day I reach for the Fatalville and rise cane and go home happy love them .58's bb75

 

[musketshooter]

The actual charge that works best was determined 150 years ago. Why reinvent the wheel? All muskets shoot best with 60 grains of powder! At lower powder charges, the skirts of the mini balls will not fully obturate in the bore, therefor causing poor accuracy. Mini balls were never intended to have grease in the base! It defeats the entire purpose of that style of bullet and leaves a mess in the bore. A properly loaded musket should keep them all in the size of a half dollar at 50 yards. If your gun won't do that, you need to experiment with different bullets and lube. Target shooting is not the same as horse shoes. Close is not good enough!

 

[ResearchPress]

The actual charge that works best was determined 150 years ago. All muskets shoot best with 60 grains of powder!

Which rifle musket is this for? The service charge for the P/53 Enfield was 2.5 drams (approx. 68 grains).

What sort of range are you talking about with your optimum 60 grain charge and what grade powder? Here in the UK we use Enfields in target shooting matches out to 600 yards, and with an occassional foray at 800 yards. Then in other matches at 50m offhand or 100m prone. I don't know that anyone here has a 'one size fits all' charge.

David

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

David, I've always used the 2.5 dram load in my P53 Enfield and I'm pleased with the results. I use the .575", 560 grain Minie for the Springfield which is a bit of a tight fit but quite accurate. What charge do you use for 600 yard shooting? Which bullet?

 

[ResearchPress]

I shoot an original Enfield; lock is dated 1866 and it is looks like the P/60 short rifle but isn't a government arm.

Bullet mould is an RCBS Minie. The base plug has been modified to give a shallow base bullet of about 565 grains.

For most shooting I use 75 grains of a 'medium grain shooting powder' available here. This is not so 'powerful' as some powders and is quite dirty; the fouling however stays soft and I can shoot a course of fire without cleaning. At the longer ranges I have been using the charge but of TPPH, the proof house powder.

David

 

[Tumblernotch]

The 60 grain charge is the standard service charge for the M1855, M1861 and both variants of the M1863 Rifle Musket of Springfield pattern. This charge behind a 500 gr. Minie/Burton expanding ball was prescibed in the U.S. Army Ordnance Manual. And this was musket powder which about the same as ffg, maybe just a little coarser.

This charge was arrived at after extensive trials by Col. Benjamin Huger (later a Confederate General) and Lieut. J.G. Benton of the various British and French rifles and muskets along with their particulat projectiles, as well as experimental arms and existing arms and their variants at Harper's Ferry and Springfield. Also, reports were studied of experiments made in London by Col. Gordon and Vincennes, France by L. Panot of the different arms used there including the Enfield Rifle Musket and the Pritchett bullet.

I have tables showing the mean deviations, velocities, etc. for the M1855 RM and the above charge and they're too extensive to put here, but the rifle was tested out to 1000 yards with measurable results. In practical battlefield use though, 500-600 yards was the max. In our Civil War you rarely read of it's use beyond 300-400 yards except in the hands of a expert sharpshooter.

Now I'm sure that with the proper bullet and a 70+ gr. charge, a good marksman could do much better at 600+ yards. But, other factors also weighed on the Ordnance Dept.'s decision to use this load besides accuracy. One being the best utilization of powder and the effect of recoil on the soldier.

Note: The mean muzzle velocity of the 60 gr./500 gr. charge in the .58 cal. Rifle Musket at that time was 963 feet per second.

In conclusion, not all muskets shoot best with 60 grs. of powder. Even with a Springfield my best groups at 50 yards are usually gotten with 35 to 40 grs. depending on projectiles. At 100, I've gotten good results with 50 grs. And as you say, the Enfield normally used a 68 gr. charge, but it could be varied for the different ranges and bullets. A friend of mine uses lighter loads in his for target shooting (50 and 100 yds.) The 60 grain charge is just a good base to work from +- for the work at hand. And it's what our military chose for it's new rifled weapon. By the way, the altered musket (.69 cal. smoothbore, rifled and sighted was given a 70 gr. charge behind a 658 gr. Minie/Burton.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Do you know the velocity for the Minie out of a converted 1842 musket?

 

[Tumblernotch]

I know what the velocities were that they got in the tests. Due to minute changes in the powder quality and other factors, they may not hold true in today's guns. But, I believe that there is probably very little difference. A musket properly loaded with a Minie ball cartridge is still sub-sonic in speed.

I'll go ahead and give the figures for the altered Harper's Ferry Rifle (Mississippi), New Rifle-musket (1855), altered Springfield Rifled-musket (1842) and the altered Harper's Ferry Rifled-musket (1842). These tests were conducted at the Washington Arsenal in July, 1856 using the Musket Ballistic Pendulum. The figures are the mean or average velocities taken from between 9 and 12 consecutive shots.

Altered Harper's Ferry Rifle Model 1841 Cal..58: 60grs. Powder, 510 gr. Minie - 914 feet per second

New Rifle-musket Model 1855 Cal..58: 60 grs. Powder, 510 gr. Minie - 963 feet per second

Altered Springfield Rifled-musket Model 1842 Cal..69: 70 grs. Powder, 740 Minie - 879 feet per second

Altered Harper's Ferry Rifled-musket Model 1842 Cal..69: 70 grs. Powder, 740 gr. Minie - 883 feet per second

Smoothbored Percussion Musket Cal..69 No Model given: 70 grs. Powder, 740 gr. Minie - 954 feet per second

These bullet weights are different than those that I gave earlier and are due to there being several experiments being done with different weights as well as the different types of muskets. It's been my experience as well as others that using lighter bullets generally will increase the velocities of these weapons. You will also note that the smoothbore musket firing a Minie has a considerably higher velocity than the ones that were rifled. Not being a ballistics expert, I believe that it was because since there was no spiral rifling in the barrel, there was less drag on the bullet. I can tell you from personal experience though that the accuracy of a Minie fired from a smoothbored barrel is dismal. The only reason that I can think of why the Harper's Ferry musket averaged out at a higher velocity than the Springfield is the fact that the Springfield was tested on one day (11 July) and the Harper's Ferry was tested on two different days (11 and 23 July) to get it's average and there must have been some atmospheric difference between the two days.

I'm sorry it took so long to answer a simple question. I just figured I'd add the rest and any explanations for any who might be curious about all the guns in the tests.
:results:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Thanks for the information. These rifles are fascinating, aren't they. I suspect that you're right about the powder. I have a friend who used to play with loads for an 1853 Enfield and he once got somethig like 1150 f.p.s. with a 450 grain Minie over 80 grains of ffg. Or so he said. It stuck in my mind because that seemed like an awesome amount of power at the time. Actually, now that I think of it, it really was/is an awesome amount of power.

 

[Tumblernotch]

You're very welcome!

I do love to read about and shoot these things. I visited an old friend who I used to reenact with a couple of weeks ago and he stated an interest in trading me an original M1842 Springfield Rifled-Musket in really nice shape for my early Parker-Hale Whitworth. I said I wasn't ready to part with it yet, but I have to admit, it is very tempting! I'd love to have one. I have an old Ideal .69 cal. 685 gr. Minie mold that I believe would come in real handy with it.

I wouldn't be surprised that he got that velocity. At 60 grs. you're pretty near 1000 to begin with. I wish I had a chronograph so I could experiment myself. My Ordnance manual has some drawings and instructions for the ballistic pendulum which I guess is a forerunner. Maybe one could be made. :hmm:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Now that would be a great project. I remember seeing one of them years ago. Didn't get close enough to see how it worked. It would be interesting to measure the ballistic pendulum against a chronograph.
There is something special about those big, slow moving leviathans--getting shot by one must feel like getting hit with a bowling ball!

 

[ResearchPress]

The 60 grain charge is the standard service charge for the M1855, M1861 and both variants of the M1863 Rifle Musket of Springfield pattern. .....
This charge was arrived at after extensive trials by Col. Benjamin Huger

Thanks for posting the interesting text. Reading it all reminded me of a book I bought while in the US in 2003, "Small Arms 1856", which details experiments carried out. Looks like I am going to have to move it up me reading list!

David

 

[Tumblernotch]

You're welcome! Well brother, that's exactly where I got the information. I like to use my own words describing things when I can. But you probably saw something similiar to the book. That is a very good reference for those interested in the development of rifled military arms in this country, as well as British and French developments.

We've had several threads on here where fellers argue about the proper loads for their Civil War muskets and what are the best for targets and hunting. I go to this book and my 1862 Edition of the "U.S. Army Ordnance Manual" to get the answers. We tweak our loads to get the optimum performance out of our muskets, but the soldier of the line didn't have that luxury unless of course he was an independent sharpshooter. So, no matter what we do to increase our accuracy and stopping power, the information in these books gives us the "proper" loads for these wonderful old weapons.

By the way, as I was typing the above, I looked at the requirements for small arms ammunition in my Ordnance Manual to compare bullet weights, etc. to those found in the "Small Arms 1856" I see that they called for a 730 gr. expanding ball (Minie) of .685 dia. over a 70 gr. charge for the rifled musket of 1842. This also covers other altered models such as the M1816. For the M1855 RM, a 500 gr. Minie of .5775 dia. over 60 grs. And for the M1842 Smoothbore musket, a 412 gr. RB of .65 dia. There are also the dimensions and weights of ammunition for the revolvers, pistols and the Sharps carbine. Wonderful book.

If anyone has any question concerning what the military did in their experiments and practical use of these weapons, feel free to ask and I'll do my best to find it. If I can't I'm sure that somebody can.

David, get into that book! There's a lot of tables and such, but there is some very informative reading there.
:results:

 

[jdstrang]

KR:

Great information! One question:

Does the book make any reference to frequency of cleaning during the tests?

I ask this because, in my sport (the N-SSA) some fellows ALWAYS brush and swab their barrels between relays (usually five in number, each of which usually involves firing from 3 to 10 shots each); some just brush; others don't do anything from the first round to the last.

I am among that last group, since I think I read somewhere (a great research mind at work) that the tests included firing 10,000 rounds without cleaning. Modern lubes have the last minie going down as smoothly as the first, and I see no need to upset the "karma" of the barrel by this near-compulsive scrubbing. 'Specially as leaving it uncleaned seems to have no adverse impact on accuracy.

Thoughts?? :hmm:

 

[Tumblernotch]

I have to get to work, but let me quote the writer: "To render all the circumstances under which the firings were made, as uniform as possible, twenty of each of the different kinds of balls, were fired at the same target before removing the gun from the machine, and the bore of the barrel was carefully wiped out at every change of ball."

The gun(s) were fired from a special frame or "machine" which took almost all human error out of the equation. I'll have to look elsewhere for other instances where they fired until they couldn't load any more and also where they wiped after every shot. I'll check those facts as soon as I can. Time prohibits me from looking now. I'll get back with what I find.
::

 

[jdstrang]

Work! The curse of the shooting class!! :crackup:

I would understand that to mean that they cleaned after every 20th shot? Thanks for the effort and the info!