Loads for 58 Cal Muskets

[Tumblernotch]

I'm back for a few minutes. I don't like to weld when it's storming. I guess I shouldn't be on here either, Hehe. To make it quicker, I'll just quote a few passages from the book describing when they cleaned the muskets used in the trials:

This was while they were testing various Minie style bullets, note what he says about musket powder versus rifle powder: "In these trials it was found that musket powder answered better with this ball (Minie, Burton variation) than rifle powder; and the gun did not foul so rapidly. The bullet fits the bore very snugly, and the cylindrical part, and the grooves being dipped in melted grease, it lubricates the bore and keeps it clean. Fifty rounds have been fired without wiping out; and twenty-five rounds were always fired without any cleaning whatever."

In another test of various rifling modes viz; 3 vs. 5 vs. 7 grooves and land and groove dimensions it was noted that "Musket powder was found to answer much better than the service rifle powder, even for the round balls. The latter not only failed to give as great accuracy as the former to the flight of the ball, but it frequently clogged the vent so effectually as to require a drift to be passed through it. Nothing of this kind ever occurred with the musket powder." These statements are kinda at odds with the observations of the modern shooters I've talked to about this.

Another quote about cleaning is given in another test on different grooves in the musket barrels. The writer said: Gun Number 16 was on one occasion fired two hundred times, without cleaning the bore or vent. Notwithstanding a thick accumulation of dirt at the bottom of the bore, the gun did not fail once to explode; and but little difficulty was found in ramming the ball to it's place. The same gun was fired upwards of a thousand times in all, without producing any perceptible injurious effect on the lands."

Mama is calling me to supper. There is more here, but it'll have to wait for another installment. It's pretty interesting stuff I think. Stay tuned.
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[Tumblernotch]

Well, I'm back. I didn't find any more notes on cleaning but there is one more recommendation about the powder used in the tests. In his conclusion, Lt. Benton said: "Musket powder is recommended for all small arms. Dupont's canister powder, of very fine grain, was tried in the pistol, but not with the same success as with the musket powder; the force of the ball was increased, but it's accuracy was much diminished. The musket powder used in the trials was generally of a low proof range, varying from 60 to 280 yards range with the mortar eprouvette."

I have talked to many shooters who say that they never use ffg. in their rifles, even the larger bores, because it fouled more than the fffg. Here, these Ordnance officers and armorers who knew their business claim that the coarse musket powder not only fouled less but gave better accuracy although somewhat less velocity. I've fired both grades of powder in a rifle musket with little appreciable difference in fouling though ffg. may be a little cleaner. The finer powder will certainly send the ball downrange faster. Being loaded by volume, there is a bit less powder being thrown when using the coarse powder than with the finer. You would just have to weigh a 60 gr. measure of each grade and see what you have.

To compare fouling, a man would have to fire so many shots with each grade with atmospheric conditions and loads being exactly the same. I have found that in humid weather, fouling is less of a problem in both my muskets and my flint rifle. A well lubed expanding ball greases the bore very well in any case, but seems to work better in humid weather. I use an 8 to 1 mixture of beeswax and Crisco and it works very well. In very dry weather the fouling can be very bad and requires more wiping. I've noticed that the looser the ball, the worse the fouling. Of course, that's because the ball does it's best as a scraper when it is tighter. And the less windage, the more likely the force of the explosion is going to make the ball fill the grooves. But, on the other hand, with more windage rapid fire in a fouled barrel is easier. Talk about something nasty, try cleaning a barrel that has had about 60 blanks fired through it at a reenactment!

He also recommended that windage should be reduced as much as possible; .0025 inch for the smaller calibers and .005 inch for the musket caliber. For target shooting if you wipe the bore often, .002 would be better.

I'll check in the Ordnance Manual for additional information on fouling and wiping the bore. I hope that you can get some useful information from my ramblings and quotes. The book I quoted from has a great deal of information about all the tests and comparisons and goes into great detail about trajectories, bullet deviations, centers of impact, angles of elevation and penetration as well as British and French trials.

We have our regular shoot tomorrow and I have made up some smoothbore musket cartridges to try and now you have put me in the mood to experiment a little with my Richmond. Might just do it if I have the time.
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Do you size minie balls? I put 50 through a sizer and it kind of shallowed the scraping grooves. Also what is MCM lube. Thanks.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I use .575 Minies in my 1853 Enfield. I used to mike them, but now I rarely do. With 70-80 grains of ffg, the rifle shoots better than I can.

 

[big bore 75]

what kind of sizer are you using? the one from dixie gun works is ok if your only sizing .002 if your sizing to much you will kill the grease groves, the best sizer to get is from: north east trade co. 1980 john brady drive muncy pa. 17756 theymake them in all diamiteres for your best accuracy the ball should be sized .002 under bore diam. what size are you casting and what is your bore daimiter. so we can lead you the right direction. bb75 p.s. I should also add that the sizer I'm talking about screws into a regular relading press such as a lee press.

 

[[email protected]]

BIG BORE...DO YOU have a website for NORTH EAST TRADE CO?
I cant find em......

 

[jdstrang]

To the best of my knowledge, Trader John at North East does not have a web site. you have to use the phone, or mail, or catch up with him at the various places he sets up. His phone is 570.546.2061. Good man and fair, and knows his market. Tell him one of his MANY N-SSA fans sent you to him.

 

[flintlockmdj]

Musket shooter,
I don't know how long you have been shooting B.P. but you are taking some pretty big steps when you generalize like this. :imo: I'm a long way from knowing it all by any means but of the 2 Zouaves 1 Richmond muskets and countless other flint and percussion rifles I have owned since 1974 when I started I have never shot two that I can remember that have taken the exact same load. :results: Perhaps you need to do some more homework before making a statement like this. :m2c: For one thing the granulations of powder were not even the same as what we have now.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Some of them. The sizer I made for my original sized Minies is a couple of thousandths too small, so it sizes them a little looser than I'd like. I've been using them unsized and doing a little better. You want as tight a fit as you can without having them get stuck. If you do a lot of rapid fire without cleaning between shots, you need a few thousandths, no more than .005". This is .0025" on each side of the ball. That's actually pretty tight and what the Ordnance Dept. recommended. If you clean every shot or every two or three shots, you can get by with a good bit less. Others may disagree because their rifling may be different as well as bullet type and lube.

My sizer also makes the grooves a little shallower, but not enough to hurt. If it does, your sizer is too tight. I drive my bullets through base first and the process actually sharpens or puts a fine burr on the edge of the groove which helps hold the lube in the groove if you put yours on by hand. I lube mine first then size them and that makes for a very neat job. especially if you are going to use them in paper cartridges. I'd like to add that I do not put lube in the base of the bullet. Some do and they say it works well, but I don't. If the charge is left in the gun without shooting it soon, it will contaminate the powder, especially the wetter lubes. And I would not recommend it for conventional paper cartridges or any cartridge where the bullet is inserted base first. I'm not familiar with MCM lube. I use a lube I make myself that is very similiar to that used by the military in the Civil War. They used Beeswax and Tallow. I use Beeswax and Crisco in about an 8 to 1 ratio.
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[Tumblernotch]

:agree: If I can get caught up with some work I've got to get done, I'll look and see if I can find the screen sizes used for granulating the powder in the 1860's. If I remember right, musket powder was somewhat equivalent to something a little coarser than ffg. However, I believe the powder inported by the South from England may have been finer as well as that made at Augusta Powder Works.

You're right, even changing the bullet in a musket will change the best amount of powder to use in that musket, so no two will be exactly the same. Especially when comparing an Enfield with a Springfield or an Austrian or a Cook and Brother or... ::

 

Hi Guys, It is the standard CW Minnie, I believe the Ideal mold. I just measured the ball and it it sized to .575. The scraping grooves are very present. My musket is 1863 type II Springfield. It could be issued today and would pass. AC made the stock crack a hair behind the rear of the lockplate, but only an eighth inch deep. I left it in the closet for years. I bought repro sight leaf (One piece). Now I wan't to sight it in ect. I guess I could use these 50 sized minnies to sight it in and then I would be OK. PS. I did reproof the rifle when I aquired it years ago. ( mount, string and a triple load. Then about thirty shots that went way high )Any help will be appreciated. I did not mean to step on this thread, however, your expertise is valued. :thanks:

 

[Tumblernotch]

These Civil War muskets tend to shoot a bit high. That's one reason troops were often given the order to aim at the knees or no higher than the belt plate. If you're shooting at a fifty yard target, you can check where it's hitting with a 60 gr. charge and reduce it accordingly. For that range, 35-40 grs. will put you in the black with a 6 o'clock hold usually. For 100 yds., you may have to experiment more, but 50 grs. works pretty well for me with the same hold. If you plan to hunt with it, I would start with 60 grs. and go up if required for long ranges. Some on here use 75-90 grs. 60 grs. is more than enough to kill a deer at way over 100 yds., but the velocity is slow enough for a deer to move enough that you miss the kill zone. It has happened to me at over 100 yds.

What I do when trying new loads is to put a large poster board behind my bullseye and seeing where my bullet strikes are if they miss the target. We use black felt fibreboard for our backers and when they get shot up it's hard to see your holes when they miss the target. It's also easier to see when a bullet keyholes. And believe me, if you have a void in your cast Minie or you didn't put enough powder in to expand the skirt, they will keyhole. I have an Ideal .69 Minie mold and it makes a pretty thick skirt. If yours is thick, you may be stuck using a powder charge pretty close to the service charge (60 grs.)

Hope this helps. There are a lot of other guys on here who shoot these things and they all have their own theories and experiences to share and will give you enough to start with. Then, the fun part will be you getting out there and doing your own thang!
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[big bore 75]

wv scounger were you able to talk to anyone at north east trade co.? if not s&s firearms, and lodgewood traders should have them and they both have web sites if your having trouble contact me off the forum and we'll get ya headed in the right direction . bb75

 

Thanks Kenawaharanger, Were you reffering to FF or FFF powder? I have both, however, my Wife bought me two lbs FF Pyrodex and I would like to try that. Wallyworld sells Pyrodex and I would like to hold on to the hard to get (for me)real black powder. I appreciate your detailed answer and am enjoying all the previous posts I am reading on this Forum :thanks: Hi Big Bore, I see how this works now. I should have RE'd KanahwaRanger. :thanks:

 

[Tumblernotch]

You're Welcome!

The powder used by our ancestors in their rifle-muskets was called musket powder and was about the same granulation as our ffg., so you're in good shape. You can use fffg. as well, just reduce the charge a little (5 grs. or so)to get the same results. I often use it. I would stick with real black powder as long as you can get it. I've never used a substitute so I don't know how it performs in a musket. Have fun with your musket!
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