Loads in a original rem 1858

[Crypt0manic]

What it is is that the flat surface (has to be large enough to do it) creates a pocket in front of the bullet that pushes the liquid, which can’t be condensed, out of the way, which is what causes the wound to become larger than the caliber, even at low velocity. The same technology was introduced by the Russians with torpedoes. They found that the pocket or bubble ahead of the torpedo allowed it to sail through the water without as much resistance. I don’t know the specifics but it’s hydraulic. So it does sort of work like a HP but with less devastation but keeping its penetration capabilities.

Hmmm, seems like you have a little more meat between your chambers than I do. Are the chambers chamfered?

I use a slightly undersized dowel rod to form my paper cartridges.

I use rolling papers too, and get the little shards of paper left occasionally in chambers. I was picking them out but then decided to see if they’d cause an issue. I only had enough to run 3 cylinders full, but it didn’t cause any ignition problems.

You can nitrate the paper. I tried it but it was messy so I gave up on it. They work fine and it’s not like I’ll need a dozen reloads going into battle somewhere.

Ooh thanks man! Do you btw use any wax or anything in front of the bullet to prevent chainfire while using the cartridges? I guess you do but would like to check if there are any tricks for that part. I mean since it's slowing down the loading process alot.

I realized lately while i was outside shooting that the wind makes it hard to measure powder and all that with the stuff i got. So guess i might make more cartridges for windy days.

I might try to fire all of the 6 cartridges i made in the same chamber i guess as a type of test to see how many it takes before it starts to misfire etc...i just used a simple pen for making them didn't find anything more

Not sure what you mean by chamfered chambers really. i can send a couple pictures here of the cylinder etc not sure if it helps tho. Is there a way to see difference between a original one and replicas? I mean could the chamber be from some replica?

That would be weird because of our laws but would be good since the replicas might have better steel. I would worry less about the chamber explosions haha


The text on the backside of the cylinder is only the letter P. Not sure what that stands for.

 

[rodwha]

Ooh thanks man! Do you btw use any wax or anything in front of the bullet to prevent chainfire while using the cartridges? I guess you do but would like to check if there are any tricks for that part. I mean since it's slowing down the loading process alot.

I realized lately while i was outside shooting that the wind makes it hard to measure powder and all that with the stuff i got. So guess i might make more cartridges for windy days.

I might try to fire all of the 6 cartridges i made in the same chamber i guess as a type of test to see how many it takes before it starts to misfire etc...i just used a simple pen for making them didn't find anything more

Not sure what you mean by chamfered chambers really. i can send a couple pictures here of the cylinder etc not sure if it helps tho. Is there a way to see difference between a original one and replicas? I mean could the chamber be from some replica?

That would be weird because of our laws but would be good since the replicas might have better steel. I would worry less about the chamber explosions haha


The text on the backside of the cylinder is only the letter P. Not sure what that stands for.

I have a lube groove on my bullets for that. I’d have to go back and look, but I don’t think your conicals have one, at least not a significant one. I’d put it between the powder and ball either in a wad or some make “cookies” or paper towels to hold the lube cutting small disks.

Unless your chambers are out of round or have pits or something the projectile should be what keeps chainfires from happening.

I like adjustable rifle powder measures that have a funnel attached.

Chamfered means to have the sharp edge taken off of the rim of the chambers. Like this:

directions to the nearest service station

I’ve read Uberti often comes close enough that with a little fitting parts can work in an original gun.

 

[Crypt0manic]

I have a lube groove on my bullets for that. I’d have to go back and look, but I don’t think your conicals have one, at least not a significant one. I’d put it between the powder and ball either in a wad or some make “cookies” or paper towels to hold the lube cutting small disks.

Unless your chambers are out of round or have pits or something the projectile should be what keeps chainfires from happening.

I like adjustable rifle powder measures that have a funnel attached.

Chamfered means to have the sharp edge taken off of the rim of the chambers. Like this:

directions to the nearest service station

I’ve read Uberti often comes close enough that with a little fitting parts can work in an original gun.

Ooh got ya! Thanks! The edges on mine are sharp. Not chamfered! What's the difference? I mean why they do that?

The lube holes on my conical ones are pretty small i guess i'm not sure since i have nothing to compare with really. Never seen any other types of bp gun bullets before except round balls. When i bought it i thought i only could shoot round balls.

Is the projectile enough to stop a chainfire? I heard of people who got that without anything in front of the bullet. You mean to put the wax on the wad inside of the cartridge to prevent the chain fire instead of in front of bullet? Never thought about that! Is it a tested thing? I mean did people try that before me?

 

[rodwha]

Do you happen to be into casting with lead? Easiest way to get what you want when you want it and for far cheaper.

There’s a couple of guys post about resizing the base of soft lead .454” modern bullets and loading those. If you could do that you could make modern bullets work.

 

[Crypt0manic]

Do you happen to be into casting with lead? Easiest way to get what you want when you want it and for far cheaper.

There’s a couple of guys post about resizing the base of soft lead .454” modern bullets and loading those. If you could do that you could make modern bullets work.

I'm actually planing to get a casting block because it's so expensive buying bullets! I could try out but what would the benefits be? I mean aren't there any effective enough bullets they used back in time for bp guns?

I might get a casting block for a .454 RB.
And another one so that i can have 2 types of bullets. it's kinda hard choosing which one the second type should be tho since i don't know which ones are the most effective and work best as a man stopper as well as which ones isolate the chambers best from chainfire etc. I'm new into bp guns you know!

But a friend of mine is casting bullets he's gonna help me out when i order the casting blocks!

 

[rodwha]

Ooh got ya! Thanks! The edges on mine are sharp. Not chamfered! What's the difference? I mean why they do that?

The lube holes on my conical ones are pretty small i guess i'm not sure since i have nothing to compare with really. Never seen any other types of bp gun bullets before except round balls. When i bought it i thought i only could shoot round balls.

Is the projectile enough to stop a chainfire? I heard of people who got that without anything in front of the bullet. You mean to put the wax on the wad inside of the cartridge to prevent the chain fire instead of in front of bullet? Never thought about that!

Chamfering was thought back in the 1860’s to help mitigate chainfires. Maybe it was Colt. What it does is instead of cutting off a ring of lead it forces it to resize to the chamber diameter. I don’t have to dig out those pesky lead rings just wasted. At least my lead goes down range.

The guy who reamed my chambers from .446” to .449” chamfered the chambers for me too.

If your chambers have a defect then it’s can’t be 100%. Chainfiring is a crazy topic with some theories I don’t buy. But that doesn’t make me right. Otherwise how can any of the flame get past an oversized lead projectile cut to the chamber’s dimensions? It can’t.

Colt worked on the rear of the cylinders too. This was done to help mitigate chainfires.

Putting lube in front of the projectile typically seems to just make a mess. I’ve never tried though. I used lubed felt wads I made but then tried no wad or lube when I was using Triple 7 that has a light and different kind of fouling. So I quit using wads with balls, but I quit shooting balls because I believe in practicing with what you use so I load hunting loads. The lube isn’t for preventing chainfires, but it does. It’s for keeping the fouling soft so that you can keep shooting and continue to be accurate.

 

[Crypt0manic]

Chamfering was thought back in the 1860’s to help mitigate chainfires. Maybe it was Colt. What it does is instead of cutting off a ring of lead it forces it to resize to the chamber diameter. I don’t have to dig out those pesky lead rings just wasted. At least my lead goes down range.

The guy who reamed my chambers from .446” to .449” chamfered the chambers for me too.

If your chambers have a defect then it’s can’t be 100%. Chainfiring is a crazy topic with some theories I don’t buy. But that doesn’t make me right. Otherwise how can any of the flame get past an oversized lead projectile cut to the chamber’s dimensions? It can’t.

Colt worked on the rear of the cylinders too. This was done to help mitigate chainfires.

Putting lube in front of the projectile typically seems to just make a mess. I’ve never tried though. I used lubed felt wads I made but then tried no wad or lube when I was using Triple 7 that has a light and different kind of fouling. So I quit using wads with balls, but I quit shooting balls because I believe in practicing with what you use so I load hunting loads. The lube isn’t for preventing chainfires, but it does. It’s for keeping the fouling soft so that you can keep shooting and continue to be accurate.

Got ya man thanks for explaining. Maybe i should try to make my cartridges using a wad with wax between the bullet and the wad. It should get out in chamber since the bullet is being shaved down the chamber i guess.... And try out smaller amounts of pyrodex like 15-20 grains...but that's a small load not sure it gives much stopping power.

Or i could try another thing i think of which is taking pretty large amount of wax and poking small holes in the cartridges. After shaving down the bullet the wax should get out in chamber of the pressure of the bullet getting pressed down and i guess the holes in cartridge should help?

Not sure how worried i should be...it's pretty expensive stuff and my hand might blow up if i fail or worse. Haha would be nice to find any tutorial on these stuff anywhere. I mean back in time during war how were they doing it? Doubt they had time to put the wax om the bullet after loading it in wars. There should be a way. Wasn't they just pressing in the cartridges, getting on the percussion cap and shooting?

But i think a large amount of wax + poking small holes just enough for the wax to get out from the cartridge in a bit pressure should work. And a big projectile ofc

 

[rodwha]

I'm actually planing to get a casting block because it's so expensive buying bullets! I could try out but what would the benefits be? I mean aren't there any effective enough bullets they used back in time for bp guns?

I might get a casting block for a .454 RB.
And another one so that i can have 2 types of bullets. it's kinda hard choosing which one the second type should be tho since i don't know which ones are the most effective and work best as a man stopper as well as which ones isolate the chambers best from chainfire etc. I'm new into bp guns you know!

But a friend of mine is casting bullets he's gonna help me out when i order the casting blocks!

Yes, the cost to buy someone else’s bullets was too much, but I also had to wait until he had enough ordered to make a run of that size. And then the options were limited and none did I feel were ideal. So I worked up my own designs and went to a custom mold maker. I can pump out a bunch in an hour and for 1/10 the cost and get exactly what I want (or think I want).

The effective against men projectile was the round ball. That’s it until a bit later when metallic cartridges had worked out their issues. If you use an energetic powder with a ball you are well armed.

If you are looking for bullet molds I’d suggest the wide meplat of 75% diameter +/- 10%. A hollow point is the best but it takes modification of the ram. But if you can find a shorter bullet it allows you to get the velocity up. I designed an extremely short 170 grn bullet that’s only .400” long, and my 195 grn version is .460” or about that of a ball. My Pietta was supposed to have a 1:30” twist meant for the short ball. It didn’t, but they still both shoot great from both 1:16” twist. You have a vain twist so I’m not sure the length of projectile is as critical. But I’m not sure about that either.

If you can get a ball mold for .457” or so it would be better. It makes a longer driving band, the flat spot created when you load that clings to the walls of the chambers, that increases the performance and accuracy like 3 or 4 frog’s hairs better.

For your second projectile a part of the problem might be the ram. From what I gather the face of your ram is rounded and like a funnel so it goes to a point like the nose of your conicals. My Pietta has a very strange face to the ram and it kisses my bullets when I load them. Once I finalize my custom bullet design I’ll buy an additional loading lever assembly so I can modify one to the nose design so it doesn’t deform it when I load them.

Sorry I am slow in replying, I’m not good at multitasking.

 

[Crypt0manic]

Yes, the cost to buy someone else’s bullets was too much, but I also had to wait until he had enough ordered to make a run of that size. And then the options were limited and none did I feel were ideal. So I worked up my own designs and went to a custom mold maker. I can pump out a bunch in an hour and for 1/10 the cost and get exactly what I want (or think I want).

The effective against men projectile was the round ball. That’s it until a bit later when metallic cartridges had worked out their issues. If you use an energetic powder with a ball you are well armed.

If you are looking for bullet molds I’d suggest the wide meplat of 75% diameter +/- 10%. A hollow point is the best but it takes modification of the ram. But if you can find a shorter bullet it allows you to get the velocity up. I designed an extremely short 170 grn bullet that’s only .400” long, and my 195 grn version is .460” or about that of a ball. My Pietta was supposed to have a 1:30” twist meant for the short ball. It didn’t, but they still both shoot great from both 1:16” twist. You have a vain twist so I’m not sure the length of projectile is as critical. But I’m not sure about that either.

If you can get a ball mold for .457” or so it would be better. It makes a longer driving band, the flat spot created when you load that clings to the walls of the chambers, that increases the performance and accuracy like 3 or 4 frog’s hairs better.

For your second projectile a part of the problem might be the ram. From what I gather the face of your ram is rounded and like a funnel so it goes to a point like the nose of your conicals. My Pietta has a very strange face to the ram and it kisses my bullets when I load them. Once I finalize my custom bullet design I’ll buy an additional loading lever assembly so I can modify one to the nose design so it doesn’t deform it when I load them.

Sorry I am slow in replying, I’m not good at multitasking.

No problem dude you help me alot actually i didn't know all that. So i appriciate the help!

So even if the gun is .454 the .457 bullets does it better tho? I actually ordered all the bullets i have to make sure about the sizes so that i would know what bullet mold to get.

At the start i got a starr DA i guess that was cal .46 or something....and i was struggling to find nice fitting balls etc...all the balls i could find were **** since they were too hard....barely could get them in. I guess they were for riffles.... Had to get help of a friend who helped me pressing down the bullet with some of his tools at his garage since it got stuck etc...anyways had alot of struggle.

Later i got the rem. and found another guy who casts bullets of soft lead and he made some .454 for me...took around a week they don't leave any rings but fit in pretty good.

Maybe i should get a .457 casting block instead then. Didn't know the RB's were so effective. Good to know some BP gun history!

Not really sure if i can find any bullet mold maker over here in sweden i will have to check all this up! I will see if i can find or make any hollow point mold! Would be great!

 

[rodwha]

Got ya man thanks for explaining. Maybe i should try to make my cartridges using a wad with wax between the bullet and the wad. It should get out in chamber since the bullet is being shaved down the chamber i guess.... And try out smaller amounts of pyrodex like 15-20 grains...but that's a small load not sure it gives much stopping power.

Or i could try another thing i think of which is taking pretty large amount of wax and poking small holes in the cartridges. After shaving down the bullet the wax should get out in chamber of the pressure of the bullet getting pressed down and i guess the holes in cartridge should help?

Not sure how worried i should be...it's pretty expensive stuff and my hand might blow up if i fail or worse. Haha would be nice to find any tutorial on these stuff anywhere. I mean back in time during war how were they doing it? Doubt they had time to put the wax om the bullet after loading it in wars. There should be a way. Wasn't they just pressing in the cartridges, getting on the percussion cap and shooting?

But i think a large amount of wax + poking small holes just enough for the wax to get out from the cartridge in a bit pressure should work. And a big projectile ofc

Back then Colt’s were often touted as the best because they were designed to deal with the fouling better. My Remington will begin to bind up a little on the 3rd cylinder. I use Ballistol and I can keep shooting it. But if handguns were a part of your style then you’d carry no less than two and maybe six. You reload later. A seasoned soldier could be well armed I’d imagine.

I would drop any ideas of those conicals for self protection. The wound is dismal but it can penetrate quite far, which does nothing on a man. I would literally defend myself with a baseball bat or large knife.

I don’t think they typically lubed their projectiles, and if all you’ll get is your 6 shots or even need and get to reload your still be good enough I’d think, especially since things tend to get close. Accuracy at 7 meters isn’t as important as at 15. If you are good at 15 and lose from fouling it won’t be noticed at 7.

 

[rodwha]

No problem dude you help me alot actually i didn't know all that. So i appriciate the help!

So even if the gun is .454 the .457 bullets does it better tho? I actually ordered all the bullets i have to make sure about the sizes so that i would know what bullet mold to get.

At the start i got a starr DA i guess that was cal .46 or something....and i was struggling to find nice fitting balls etc...all the balls i could find were **** since they were too hard....barely could get them in. I guess they were for riffles.... Had to get help of a friend who helped me pressing down the bullet with some of his tools at his garage since it got stuck etc...anyways had alot of struggle.

Later i got the rem. and found another guy who casts bullets of soft lead and he made some .454 for me...took around a week they don't leave any rings but fit in pretty good.

Maybe i should get a .457 casting block instead then. Didn't know the RB's were so effective. Good to know some BP gun history!

Not really sure if i can find any bullet mold maker over here in sweden i will have to check all this up! I will see if i can find or make any hollow point mold! Would be great!

It sounds like your chambers run just a little under .454” if the balls don’t shave lead but seem snug under recoil too.

What it is assumed to be is that there’s more friction with the longer bearing surface which allows the pressures from the powder combustion to build up a fraction of a second faster creating more pressure/velocity. Match shooters tend to shoot way oversized balls to get the longer driving band as they seem to get better accuracy. Bullets do this by additional weight and by driving band length if they’re designed such.

Back then calibers could range a bit, they weren’t standardized. You should find a projectile for your Starr.

I figured you had access to the EU market.

 

[Crypt0manic]

Back then Colt’s were often touted as the best because they were designed to deal with the fouling better. My Remington will begin to bind up a little on the 3rd cylinder. I use Ballistol and I can keep shooting it. But if handguns were a part of your style then you’d carry no less than two and maybe six. You reload later. A seasoned soldier could be well armed I’d imagine.

I would drop any ideas of those conicals for self protection. The wound is dismal but it can penetrate quite far, which does nothing on a man. I would literally defend myself with a baseball bat or large knife.

I don’t think they typically lubed their projectiles, and if all you’ll get is your 6 shots or even need and get to reload your still be good enough I’d think, especially since things tend to get close. Accuracy at 7 meters isn’t as important as at 15. If you are good at 15 and lose from fouling your ont be noticed at 7.

Got ya! I will get round balls.

I'm curious why conicals got so much worse stopping power it's because they penetrate through the attacker instead of dumping in the energy into the attacker and splitting into parts like hollow point etc does? As you mentioned i notices the speed of bullets wasn't very impressing. I shot at a air filter i found to see the damage and it got a buckle with a small scratch...ofc the air filter fly away i'm sure there would be a hole if it would be put against something so that it wouldn't be able to move. I guess the bullet was flying too slow. But the penetration holes were double as large which also is weird since they fly at so low speed.

 

[Crypt0manic]

It sounds like your chambers run just a little under .454” if the balls don’t shave lead but seem snug under recoil too.

What it is assumed to be is that there’s more friction with the longer bearing surface which allows the pressures from the powder combustion to build up a fraction of a second faster creating more pressure/velocity. Match shooters tend to shoot way oversized balls to get the longer driving band as they seem to get better accuracy. Bullets do this by additional weight and by driving band length if they’re designed such.

Back then calibers could range a bit, they weren’t standardized. You should find a projectile for your Starr.

I figured you had access to the EU market.

I tried to leave the starr back to the guy who sold it since it wasn't working properly. But he said i can change to another gun but not leave back and get money back so i will probably get a remington instead! I will try to get a .454 rem to get the same sizes for the balls as my current one you seen. So that i won't need more bullet molds etc...i will see what remingtons that guy has. His remingtons doesn't seem to be in nearly as good shape as my current one tho i got them from different people. But they are for sure shootable. He knows i'm not just collecting them and that i'm going to shoot with it.

It will be cheaper if they both work with same bullets.

Yeah man i got lead rings with larger balls i think these were .457 or something but the .454 leave no rings at all. But it's sitting pretty good tho i mean not a chance they could roll out or anything like that!

 

[rodwha]

Got ya! I will get round balls.

I'm curious why conicals got so much worse stopping power it's because they penetrate through the attacker instead of dumping in the energy into the attacker and splitting into parts like hollow point etc does? As you mentioned i notices the speed of bullets wasn't very impressing. I shot at a air filter i found to see the damage and it got a buckle with a small scratch...ofc the air filter fly away i'm sure there would be a hole if it would be put against something so that it wouldn't be able to move. I guess the bullet was flying too slow. But the penetration holes were double as large which also is weird since they fly at so low speed.

The problem is twofold. The pointy nose allows flesh the time to stretch along with the slower velocity that allows it to stretch further I guess you could say. It would wound the hell out of horses and mules and such! Didn’t kill them outright but a lame horse gets shot.

 

[rodwha]

I tried to leave the starr back to the guy who sold it since it wasn't working properly. But he said i can change to another gun but not leave back and get money back so i will probably get a remington instead! I will try to get a .454 rem to get the same sizes for the balls as my current one you seen. So that i won't need more bullet molds etc...i will see what remingtons that guy has. His remingtons doesn't seem to be in nearly as good shape as my current one tho i got them from different people. But they are for sure shootable. He knows i'm not just collecting them and that i'm going to shoot with it.

It will be cheaper if they both work with same bullets.

Yeah man i got lead rings with larger balls i think these were .457 or something but the .454 leave no rings at all. But it's sitting pretty good tho i mean not a chance they could roll out or anything like that!

The economics makes perfect sense to me. I think along those lines and things aren’t as restrictive here.

Those balls could be creeping forward with recoil. I’ve had bullets do it

 

[Crypt0manic]

The economics makes perfect sense to me. I think along those lines and things aren’t as restrictive here.

Those balls could be creeping forward with recoil. I’ve had bullets do it

Got ya man! I will check it up and probably try .457 before getting a bullet casting mold!
Thanks for all the advices! i got to learn alot! Love this forum! i gotta go sleep dude! It's late here i will keep you guys updated! Cya later take care!

 

[Crypt0manic]

@rodwha hey man! I was outside and tried out shooting some of the cartridges. Guess i need to check up another way for making them.

I tried the paper cartridges i made just wanted to tell you it started misfiring on 5th bullet. I shot 4 of them and at 5th didn't fire so i got to loosen the nipple and get the pyrodex and bullet out on my own.

Also except misfiring i noticed the explosion came a bit too slow compared to regulat shooting clean powder in chambers with no paper.

Was a hell getting the nipple clean since it got paper inside there so i put it in water for the paper to get wet later i poked it out.

All this was using pyrodex RS.

As well i actually tried 30 grains with the conical bullet and i didn't really notice much difference on the penetration power. But more accurate tests needs to be done before i can tell for sure. But i barely need 30 grains with a conical it was a test. Got no ballistic gel so guess i will try with paper to see how well 25 grn and 30 grn penetrate.

 

[rodwha]

@rodwha hey man! I was outside and tried out shooting some of the cartridges. Guess i need to check up another way for making them.

I tried the paper cartridges i made just wanted to tell you it started misfiring on 5th bullet. I shot 4 of them and at 5th didn't fire so i got to loosen the nipple and get the pyrodex and bullet out on my own.

Also except misfiring i noticed the explosion came a bit too slow compared to regulat shooting clean powder in chambers with no paper.

Was a hell getting the nipple clean since it got paper inside there so i put it in water for the paper to get wet later i poked it out.

All this was using pyrodex RS.

As well i actually tried 30 grains with the conical bullet and i didn't really notice much difference on the penetration power. But more accurate tests needs to be done before i can tell for sure. But i barely need 30 grains with a conical it was a test. Got no ballistic gel so guess i will try with paper to see how well 25 grn and 30 grn penetrate.

Look through the flash hole in the nipples, is it tiny, like straight pin/thumb tack sized (that would be about as large as I’d want them)? The portion you put the caps on should be a large hole, but the flash channel should be very small. It sounds like yours is large if paper got blown into it.

 

[Crypt0manic]

Look through the flash hole in the nipples, is it tiny, like straight pin/thumb tack sized (that would be about as large as I’d want them)? The portion you put the caps on should be a large hole, but the flash channel should be very small. It sounds like yours is large if paper got blown into it.

Naaah dude i actually can't imagine it could be any smaller then this...maybe i'm wrong but it's very small so i got surprised the paper could get in there!

 

[TFoley]

Wasn't they just pressing in the cartridges, getting on the percussion cap and shooting?

Yup, Just that.

IMO you are trying too hard - it's not rocket science, and people have been making pre-loaded cartridges for revolvers since the late 1830's without all the fuss of wax and wads.