lock id

[wayne1967]

Putting this on here for a friend. It's off of a Jeager and pretty sure it's a conversion. Anyone know what the orginal lock was off of?

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[Trench]

I agree it's a conversion from flintlock....but I don't knows anything else. :v

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

It is definitely a conversion, probably a Germanic or Northern European military arm. I had thought that it might be Swedish or Norwegian but I don't find anything in my references showing anything similar made for those two nationalities so it may be a military lock for one of the states that became part of the German Empire in the 1870s.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Ah, ha! It may be Dutch! This according to the "Legermuseum - Collectie Informatie Centrum" website at:

http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/strategion/strategion/overcic.html

Can we see a picture of the entire gun? If not, can you make out the writing engraved on the lock plate? I'm having trouble with it....

 

[Dphar]

What makes you think it was not always on the Jeager?

Dan

 

[Tumblernotch]

It's Dutch. I can't make out the maker's name, but the lower line says "A Rotterdam". Dutch locks were marked with the maker's name on the top line and with "a Amsterdam", "a Rotterdam" or "a Maastricht" on the bottom depending on which city the maker was located in.

I see no evidence of it ever being converted from flint, however it appears that the hammer is a replacement.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

It's Dutch. I can't make out the maker's name, but the lower line says "A Rotterdam". Dutch locks were marked with the maker's name on the top line and with "a Amsterdam", "a Rotterdam" or "a Maastricht" on the bottom depending on which city the maker was located in.

I see no evidence of it ever being converted from flint, however it appears that the hammer is a replacement.

Rotterdam, I should have been able to see that at least, :redface: thanks Ranger.

As far as a conversion, the frizzen screw remnants are visible on the face as well as the back of the plate so I don't think that there is any doubt about that. The lock plate was very well dressed down so it is difficult to see any of the holes for the frizzen spring.

 

[Tumblernotch]

It may be a conversion, but the only screw remnants I can see are the two on either side of the bolster cut-out. Those screw are holding the bolster on. The lack of a screwdriver slot on the front one make me believe that it is a pin or boss forged into the bolster rather than a screw. Even though I pasted the picture into my computer and have enlarged it, I can't see any sign of a screw where a frizzen spring screw should be. Of course when I enlarge it enough it gets a bit fuzzy and my eyes ain't what they should be.

 

[wayne1967]

I couldn't see any trace of a frizzen spring hole either. He's bringing it back to work monday and I will take some pics of the whole gun.

 

[Tumblernotch]

That should help a lot. I personally don't have much knowledge of Dutch guns, but someone on here will I'm sure. At least with the whole gun we can see the furniture and style and somebody should be able to match it to a known model. It's a shame we can't make out the maker's name any better. I've googled Dutch gunmakers in Rotterdam, but haven't had any luck yet.

 

[matt denison]

I don't think it is a conversion, here's why:

The semi circular shape of the area of where a flash pan would be would not allow for the frizzen to be able to close. the forward part of that funny semi circle would be in the way. If someone had cut the flash pan off it would be flat there. I think this lock was made to look like a conversion but it isn't. Perhaps the person who designed it thouht that it would add a design element to a drum ignition gun or ? Add to that the lack of evidence of a frizzen pivot screw hole. Just MHO.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I don't think so either. The cut-out is the same shape as some German locks I've seen and if I remember right I saw some with the same kind of lip around them. I'm just guessin' but I'd say it was made in the late 1830's, early 40's, most likely early 40's. I don't know enough about Dutch arms manufacturing to be able to say it with any certainty though.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Ranger and laffindog, some interesting thoughts and I will not say that I completely disagree but I am sorry, this lock dates back to no latter than 1780 and was certainly a flintlock. To me, the frizzen screw is plainly visible but....

For more than enough information of Dutch guns, check the link I posted above.

 

[wayne1967]

I still don't see any sign of a frizzen screw hole for it or the spring. The mainspring bolt and spring lug can be seen from the front. The two faint ones on either side of the "pan" are actually part of it pinned through the lock plate.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

This is a link to a page of the site that might help. Try:

http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/asp/page.asp?alias=strategion&view=strategion&id=i006253&show=detail&priref=96494&collection=mediatheek&q=

The lock plate on the Vuursteencadetgeweer vervaardigd door Lambertus Michaelis Thone te Amsterdam, circa 1780-1785 (Flint Cadet Rifle manufactured by Lambert Michaelis Thone, Amsterdam, circa 1780-1785) is almost identical in shape to the lock shown by wayne1967 but is still in flint.

Sorry guys but I can't see wayne1967's lock as being original percussion, it is just too early in style.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Wayne, I am sorry, we were both composing and posting at the same time. The lock you show is just too early in style to have been made originally as a percussion lock. If the link works for you you will see the similarity is style of the plate which is at least late 18th Century. Shortly after this the Dutch started copying the French M1777's style for their military guns. With it's inclined brass pan, this would have been even more distinctive.

But, let me say this, you have the lock in hand and I certainly do not wish to argue with what you say you can see up close, however I do see a screw in your photo where it should be located for a frizzen. Proper conversion will often hide this very well on the face of the plate and even on the back. If I am wrong, I do apologize and will step out of the conversation. But the Dutch were very competent gun makers, for both military and civilian use, and they stayed up right along with the French who were the leaders of gun production and improvement worldwide in the late 18th and early 19th Centuries. Just my opinion, of course, for all that's worth, but this lock is just too early in style to have been anything other than flint.

Could we see a picture or pictures of the entire firearm?

 

[wayne1967]

All imfo welcome, thanks. My buddy is suppose to bring it back to work tomorrow. I'll take some pics if he does.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

That'll be great Wayne, looking forward to it if you have the chance.

 

[wayne1967]

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[Va.Manuf.06]

Very nice. Just out of curiosity, have you had the trigger guard off? It is a later addition.