Lock woes

[Dewey]

I have a new flintlock that has a unique problem (ok, at least one I have not seen before).

With the recommended 5/8" (length) flint in (bevel up or down), the frizzen stops halfway open when in the gun - in other words, doesn't get moved far enough for the spring to open it fully. The flint is still resting on the frizzen near the bottom of the frizzen.

When out of the gun, the lock works just fine!

OK, maybe something is binding, so I look and can see that the frizzen pan cover edge is rubbing on the barrel just above and to the front of the vent liner. So I grind down that edge ... no way is it rubbing now - and get the same results. I can't see anything else that would be rubbing in terms of the frizzen, and the cock does not seem to be rubbing on the stock either.

Thinking that maybe the lock screws were too tight, I tried snapping the lock with just holding the lock in place in the stock - same problem.

Finally, with a 1" flint the lock will work until the flint is ground down (fewer starks, and wears down quickly due to the poor angle of impact).

Help !!!

 

[Zonie]

The only thing that comes to mind is the mainspring might be rubbing on the wood at the bottom of the lock mortise?

You might try coating the edge of the spring with inletting compound or lipstick and then installing the lock into the mortise.

Cock and fire it a few times, remove the lock and look for the compound or lipstick on any of the wooden areas around the spring.

 

[don hepler]

There's a lot of difference between a 5/8 flint and a 1" flint, so some where in between might be the answer. I assume that you have the flint wrapped in leather. I'm particular in the thickness that I use. I like it to be about the thickness you would see in a baseball glove, and about as stiff. I use a gage I carry in my pocket when I get the opportunity to sort through a box of flints, and pick only the one's that fit the gage. It all sounds a little picky, but consistency is part of the key to having a flintlock that fires "almost" every time. I say almost, because a flint can fail, come loose, but I can not tolerate a FTF, even in target shooting. Once you get dialed in, you want to stay that way, if you need to replace a flint.

 

[Dewey]

Oops - that should be 7/8" flint vs 1".

Sorry for the typo!

Yes, the flint is held nicely in leather. It doesn't move. I will keep your flint selection methods in mind!

The 1" flint is definitely an emergency solution. Due to the strike position/angle there are fewer sparks and the flint gets chewed up quickly. Stops working when it gets to 7/8". The 7/8" size works ... as long as the lock is out of the gun ... not very useful for shooting !!!!

Thanks for the idea, Zonie !

I will try it tomorrow. It will have to be lipstick, as I have no inletting black - too bad neither my wife or daughter had a "goth" phase, lol !!!

 

[azmntman]

Ever consider using red? bet ya could see it just s well?

 

[don hepler]

I remember having my custom flintlock pistol, hanging up right at the bottom of the frizzen, just as you described. I put a cut flint in, and the problem went away. I've never had a problem with a Siler or my TC's locks, but for some reason the pistol did not work with the black English flints that I normally use. The custom pistol was used, and I'm not sure who made the lock.

 

[Tom Compton]

What make of lock? May be that the screw the frizzen pivots on is too tight or the frizzen is otherwise binding between bolsters.
TC

 

[Dewey]

Thanks for the ideas, guys, but the lock works just fine out of the gun, so I don't see how either the flint type or frizzen screw could be a factor in this case. Seems to me that in both these cases the lock wouldn't work either in or out of the gun.

Come to think of it, while trying to find a solution, I did try loosening the frizzen screw, but no luck....

It's a puzzlement ....

Still haven't tried Zonie's idea yet ... daughter just found some old (not black) lipstick.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Thanks for the ideas, guys, but the lock works just fine out of the gun, so I don't see how either the flint type or frizzen screw could be a factor in this case. Seems to me that in both these cases the lock wouldn't work either in or out of the gun.

Come to think of it, while trying to find a solution, I did try loosening the frizzen screw, but no luck....

It's a puzzlement ....

Still haven't tried Zonie's idea yet ... daughter just found some old (not black) lipstick.

Try loosening the screw that holds the lock in place. No need to crank down hard on that. If you do it can cause the frizzen and internals to bind against the wood. And, it is possible you may need to remove a little wood. Take the lock out and look at the wood in and around the inlet. If you see shiny spots where something is rubbing that is a clue. Using a scraper take off just a bit of the wood in those areas and try again. You may have to repeat the process several times. Good luck.

 

[Dean2]

On top of the very good suggestion about the lock internals touching the wood when installed and tightened, it is just possible that you are bending the lock plate slightly when you install it on the gun. Try tightening the lock screws just finger tight and see if it helps.

 

[Dewey]

Thinking that maybe the lock screws were too tight, I tried snapping the lock with just holding the lock in place in the stock - same problem.

That is, I didn't have the lock screws in at all - just held the lock into the stock with my fingers and it didn't work !

As you guys say, it MUST be something in the lock touching wood ... will have to try to find what is binding ....

The gunsmith is also trying (long distance) to figure this out, too.

Thanks all for the suggestions, will let you know what the problem was ... hopefully !!!

 

[Dewey]

Well, the gunsmith (Matt) figured it out !!!

Although the frizzen APPEARS to stop halfway, it is actually REBOUNDING off the spring - if I hold a card on top of the frizzen spring, it opens fully. If the paper thin enough (or dented enough) it bounces back, but not all the way to the flint.

The amazing thing to me is that you can not see this happening, it is so fast!

Matt thinks that the lock works when removed from the gun because it is not held as rigid as in the gun and the energy is absorbed (by me).

So the lock is going back to Matt at NSW for him to work on the frizzen spring.

Thanks for all your suggestions - I hope the solution to the problem will help the next person who encounters this situation. Or that your suggestions may fix someone else's lock problem.

Ain't this forum great ???!!!!

 

[Zonie]

I would have suggested the frizzen was bouncing back which is quite common.
I didn't because, usually when it is a case of bouncing back, the frizzen comes to rest on top of the flint, not in a position that seems to have the flint edge still engaged with the frizzen face.

If it is a case of bounce back, if the gun is firing, I would say ignore it.

If the gun refuses to fire, fixing the bouncing frizzen might be worth the trouble.

 

[nwtradegun]

I would send it back to the manufactor was.

 

[Dewey]

The lock is under warranty, so I will let it go away for a while in hopes that Matt can cure the problem. I have faith that he can, but even if it persists, I will at least know that we tried.

Worst case is I lose my gun for a while (so I will shoot my other flintlock instead), and have to either live with the problem or put velcro on the frizzen spring (what WILL the HC/PC crowd think if I do THAT, lol ???).

Best case - my lock works as it should, and I am happy!

Worth a shot, IMHO.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

When I lost my frizzen spring (don't dissasemble your lock in tall grass!) and had to get a new one, the lack of a frizzen spring didn't stop the lock from operating. It shot fine, but did rebound back against the cock.

When I spoke with L&R about it and remarked that it still fired just fine, they told me the reason there was a spring for the frizzen was not to keep the frizzen closed and offer resistance to the flint hitting it but just to keep it from rebounding back against the cock.

So odds are your lock will just get a little stronger spring to keep it from rebounding. The spring on my lock is not very strong but does the trick just fine.

Twisted_1in66:thumbsup:
Dan

 

[Billnpatti]

If you have a candle, you have inletting black. Just hold the piece that you are fitting in the tip of a candle flame and it will deposit soot on the piece. Put the piece in the mortise and look for the soot marks. That's how it was done for all the years before someone came up with inventing inletting black or lipstick.

 

[Matt PA]

I'm not sure how it can be rebound if the flint is still putting pressure on the bottom face of the frizzen?.......If the frizzen releases to rebound then the flint should have traveled to a position below the bottom edge and the frizzen should be sitting over top?

Just trying to picture what is really going on? I'm fighting what I thought was the exact same issue with one of my guns right down to a T with how you first described it.
Lock works great out of the gun 100%, as soon as its in the mortise with any pressure it stops just short of kicking the frizzen over.
Flint edge is engaged at the very bottom of the frizzen.
I saw contact on my barrel as well and eliminated it.....also polished the pivoting surfaces and still....quick and sparky out of the mortise and stops short IN.

Gonna start looking close at my mortise as well.....

 

[Dewey]

Try putting a piece of paper or thin cardboard over the top of the frizzen spring and snap the lock ... if you have a dent from the frizzen (what DO you call the curly part that lands on the spring - a stop, rest?) or, if using a thicker paper/cardboard, the frizzen is full open, you will know for sure you have a rebound like me.

It's a great test to know !!!

In my case it wasn't any internal wood pressure on the lock, but that the lock was being held so tightly there was no absorption of the shock energy so I got a full rebound. When hand held, your hands absorb that energy (I am told), so the lock seems to work properly.

I used a postcard weight paper/cardboard, and the frizzen was full open at first, but as I tried again, the dent became deeper and the lock bounced back part way (but not back to the flint as it did without the paper), as less energy was absorbed. It was interesting to see.

Give it a try !!!

 

[Dewey]

If you have a candle, you have inletting black. Just hold the piece that you are fitting in the tip of a candle flame and it will deposit soot on the piece. Put the piece in the mortise and look for the soot marks. That's how it was done for all the years before someone came up with inventing inletting black or lipstick.

Thanks ... will remember that for any future need (now that I know that the problem really is).