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Long barrels&Shot loads?

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I have seen it said that the smaller bores and longer barrels have an advantage when shooting round balls. How about shot loads? A gun that will be used mostly for hunting turkeys with some rd ball shooting for fun, is there any real advantage to say a 46" barrel over a 36" barrel? If so, what is the advantage. Also bore size. Is a .10 or .11 ga a better choice than a .20 ga if the primary use is turkeys? It would also be used for the occasional deer hunt and for some informal trap shooting. What would be the best choice? Thanks for any replies. ffffg, Runner, Mike Brooks and others with shotgun experience you input would be appreciated.
 
this is a long argued subject.. the basic question is why are the old military flintlocks so long? here are some reasons (?maybe).. a. when you put a bayonet on a 46 inch barrel and only have one shot the one with the longest bayonet may have an adantage.. but if a guy with a machetti knows how to perry(sp) comes along youll probably be something akin to hamberger.... b. you can shoot with the guy in front of you while hes loading.. :grin: try that with your buddies next time out.. seroiusly tho other reasons ive heard are that in the old days they used 1fg and this lenght barrel was a definit value there so im told, dont know.. longer barrels hold better that is probably disputed too but i feel they do especially if they are swamped.. a 36 inch barrel is probably long enough for your bp needs, but i feel better with my 42 when im stuffing more powder in at 10 below zero, that im getting the full effect of whatever velocity i can have.. dont know if thats whats happening either.. i do feel tho that you should be finished with your power stroke before the ball or shot exits, for best accuracy, and i cant measure that either.. :hmm: in the past the 16 was the gentelmans gun, lightweight and enough power for upland birds,,... here on this forum the 20 will win hands down,, everyone i know grabs for the 12 when birds get spooky, and the 10 is definitly best when your shooting flying big birds like geese.. (turkey is a head shot, so a dence pattern of 6 shot of any guage will do).. as to ball, mlmls dave kanger put it best when he got his new cherry wood 12 guage smoothbore years ago,, "fine gun, but you need a wheelbarrel to haul the balls around".. :grin: the all around gun to me is the 16, big enough for a reasonably sized payload of shot, and a 400 grain round ball.. but its a tweener, not light, not heavy...the 42-46 inch barreled 20 can weigh as little as 6 1/2 pounds, put down a turkey, kill a deer, and down a pheasant if you load her right and get within range... well i guess thats about as clear as mud. :confused: ... it can take years to learn how to use a smoothbore flintlock, literally a lifetime im my position and im learning more every day... dave
 
Thanks a lot dDave, that answered my question. NOT :grin: Ohh well, the gun i am planning on trying this with is a 1rst Model Bess, so not really much of a wingshooting machine. But i thought that if the barrel was shortened to 36" and a lot of excess wood taken off the stock, that i would make an all right gun for hunting. What ya think?
 
i wouldnt shorten it. it will be fine as is, with a little lock tuning etc.. if you shorten it well, do you want to give someone around here a heart attack? if you can find one, every once in awhile one gets a barrel bulge in the end and it should be for sale cheap, and you can whack the end off.. youl be surprised how quickly you adjust for that loooong barrel.. the turkey definitly wont care.. and the guys at the bp shoots wont snicker.. (i actually think it will be a decent choice (value) for what you want once you get her tuned up.) :grin: ...dave
 
Thanks Dave, it isn't an original, just an India made 1rst Model Bess. My Jackie Brown .20 ga had a 42" barrel and i really liked it but that gun was light weight. This Bess is going to be a bit on the heavy side. Maybe just taking a lot of the excess wood off the stock will help. Will have to wait and see. Thanks again. Take care.
 
A sorta aside: back in the old days tests proved that barrel length had little to do with range or "power" of shot loads. They set up a target of successive sheets of paper and fired a given load at a given range with successively shorter barrels. All penetrated the same number of paper sheets. But, long barrels had some advantages: better sight radius, they "swing" better and perhaps they aid in patterning (before the era of chokes). Alot of the early long barrels were mainly due to the style of the day. You don't really need more than about 30" barrels...on the other hand, today PC issues could come into play if you are so inclined.
 
In my experience long barrels shoot tighter patterns. Especially in the small bores (28 & 20 bores) The small bores patterns are tighter, but they shoot a sting of shot rather than a ball like the big bores do. A friend and I were doing some pattern work one day. I was shooting a 12 bore with .015 jug in a 37" barrel. He was shooting a cylinder bored 20 bore with a 44" barrel. His patterns were far tighter than mine, and my 12 bore shoots tight!
Long in small bores I consider to be 46" + and long in big bores I consider to be 50" to 72" long. I've got a 72" 11 bore barrel in a piece of wood. I hope to have it stocked up and finished by June Friendship. :grin:
There is a reason all of the 18th century wild fowling guns had 54" to 70+" barrels, and I believe it had nothing to do with powder quality and everything to do with patttern density. Otherwise they would have never bothered to make those long labor intensive barrels if a 30" barrel would do the same job.
I imagin Paul V will disagree with everything I'm about to post. :winking:
 
The only thing I disagree with you is your assumption I would Disagree! Really, Mike, you have to get some help.

I think the reason your long barrels pattern tighter, all other things being equal, is that the velocities begin to drop off as the powder completes it burn in the first 16 inches or so, and the shot load has to travel another 4 feet or more to escape the barrel. I think hte shot also gets a chance to " settle down " to stay together at speed after that super launching it suffers when the gun is fired, even with black powder. It repacks together in a looser version than existed with the wads were tamped down at loading, and any oscillating of pellets in the barrel is over before the shot leaves the barrel. That leaves the shot to only deal with hitting the air at the muzzle when it leaves the gun. By its nature, air delivers an even amount of resistance to all the pellets- at least those at the front of the load, behind the overshot card.

Since, I believe, the shot is pushing that card evenly after traveling down those long barrels, it most likely takes much longer for the card to separate from the shot, exposing the shot pellets to air resistance.

When you look at flight time, measured in 1,000ths of a second, and less, it does not take much of a delay in the separation of overshot cards from the shot, or shot from a plastic shotcup, for there to be marked improvements in the patterns down range.

The easiest way to look for evidence that what I theorize is happening would be to look at where your overshot cards land from a 36 inch barrel, and where his lands from his 44 inch barrel. YOu might want to use comparable loads just to make the test results more reliable. You can get the same result by simply using the much lighter dram loads given by V.M. Starr in his article on Muzzle Loading Shotguns, on Bob Spenser's Black Powder Notebook, [url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/starr.html[/url] using a shorter, more standard length barrel. And just to support the Late Mr. Starr as no crackpot, the Illinois River Commercial Duck hunters in the 1880s used a 2 3/4 dram load with 1 1/4 oz. of #5 shot as their favorite load to kill ducks at 50 yds! No 3 dram, or heavier loads for these guys. The article I read on this activity did not say if the guns where jug choked or not, and they may not have been. Those hunters thought nothing of shooting at flocks of ducks sitting on the water. They relied on the weight of the pellet to kill or wound the ducks, and not the pattern, I think.

However, Since I don't want to invest in a 6 foot or longer barrel, and then cut it back by inches to test this over a chronograph, I will rely on other data done by others who have sacrificed barrels to figure that out. I learned a long time ago that I don't have to jump off a cliff to know that its going to hurt when I stop suddenly at the bottom!

Historically, the Brown Bess replaced the Pike as the tool of the infantry, so the long barrel, and bayonet were essentially a dual purpose weapon for battle, allowing a volley or two of shots fired in the general direction of the enemy, and then the used of the improvised pike to repel cavalry, and later, infantry attacks. Remember that these battles were fought with the men standing literally shoulder to should, with a second rank of men ready to step up and fill the gap caused by a fallen soldier in a moment's notice. The idea was based on the Roman tactic of presenting an impenetrable human wall on the battle field to overwhelm the enemy.

I am curious about something in your loading process: Are either you or your friend doing anything to protect the shot from rubbing against the sides of the barrel as the pellets are traveling down the barrel? In my testing, I found that all the shot that had flats from rubbing dropped off in the first 20-25 yds. and did not touch the patterning board at 40 yds. I also have a good friend who has been testing shot loads, now, for more than 60 years, and he was the man who wised me up, and set up the test papers to show me where the missing shot was going, and then explained why it was dropping out.

So, I would appreciate a comment on how you, and your good friend load the shot so it doesn't rub on the barrel in those long barrel smoothbores. When I fire a load of shot containing 210 pellets or so, I like to think that more than 20 % of them will reach the core pattern at 40 yds. ( 20 inch circle)
 
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Hey ffffg, how about some details on that 16 guage and the loads you use in it. I've built one with a 46 inch cylinder bore barrel and have had quite the time trying to find a load. At this point, I have a 20 inch circle with 124 #5 (58%)shot in it at 25 yards. I'm looking for a little more.The load is 60 grains of ffg and 90 grains by volume of #5 shot, 3 overshot cards on the powder and one overshot card over the shot. I've used shot cups made of index cards wrapped around a dowel twice. I think I'll use it for turkey, 12 shots in the head and neck at 25 yrds. with #4 shot. I'd really like to get away from the shot cups, one more thing to carry! More details please!
 
About 20 years ago my friend Lizard told me that to shoot smoothbore roundball you need to as long and heavy barrel as you can hold. My competition smoothbore has a 48" barrel and was bored 20 ga ID and 16 ga OD by Getz. The gun weighs in at 17 pounds, and shoots like a rifle out to 75 yards. At 25 yards I can keep 9 buckshot inside of a paper plate. It is handy for wing shooting, because it is impossible to to stop your swing with a gun that is that heavy.

The oldtimers told me that the heavier barrel gets rid of the barrel harmonics. Don't know if that is true, but I have beat a lot of thin barreled smoothbores with this heavy gun.

Many Klatch
 
your load cards and wads is not a good idea . . im surprised your gettig this good of pattern.. the larger shot your using will pattern better than smaller shot.. try this to see if you can get better patterns.. get on the phone with track of the wolf and order some 16 ga 1/2" fiber wads, nitro cards, and of course you dont need overshot cards that you already have.... put in powder,then 1/4 inch(half) of a 1/2 inch 16 gauge fiber wad,, nitro card, full half inch thick 16 guage fiber wad in that order.. but put a glob of tc lube under the 1 /2" fiber wad just above the nitro card... pack the wads and powder, put in the shot, and then make sure the overshot card is on the shot,but do not pack the shot.. more shot than powder will give better patterns,id try 2fg then 3fg and see what patterns best and gives good ignition.. pay attention to what ive said above and you should get better patterns.. homeade paper shot cups and multimetal buffer from balistic products will get patterns tighter if needed..put in enough buffer to fill inbetween shot after it is loaded, then top off with nitro cards.. buffer will raise pressures a little. tc lube is available from track of the wolf. dont cut corneres unless you want to get up at 4 in the morning, walk 2 miles, then shoot a blown pattern.. thats not an alternative for me.. try your own powder shot load your using now with wads and nitro card, then try 90 2f and 100 gr equivelent number 6 shot for turkey in cool weather, work up your loads.. hot weather you should probably reduce this.... this should get you out to 25-30 yards.. or 70 2f 90 gr equivelent shot,, 802f and 100gr equivelent shot....if you have a chronograph use it. watch for loads with similar velocities. widely varied velocities means your getting occational blow by which is what happens if you dont have a good load.. knickel plated number 6 or 5 1/2 or 5 lead shot is tops for good patterns but expensive, avialabel from balistic products.. put names into search engine and it should spit their website out.. .. you may not get a whole lot better patterns of what it seems, but you should get much more consistent patterns.. use a bore brush with hoppes #9 nitro solvent to clean lead out of bore, 25 strokes each cleaning should keep your bore in pretty good shape.. once in a while youl need to clean it all out until no more lead is comming on pathces after brushing.. lead in bore will raise heck with ball loads and can increase blown patterns, and get them shooting off center on pattern board.. dave
 
i reread your post and see your using 60 2g and 90gr equivelent shot.. probably better stick to that until your gun is thouroly tested,, its cold here now and you surely dont want to use 902f and 100 lead shot in hot weather.. until youve gotten more experience youd probably better stick to 60-90 70-90, and 80-90 or there abouts.. and it should give you good loads with a good wad system.. 90-100 is a pretty hot load and should be approached cautously..hot loads usually wont give you good patterns anyway.. flintlocks are tough to see when they reach max pressures.. leaving ramrod in the barrel, and air space behind load is your biggest probem.. measure the rod on your hand to see that load is set properly and measured right.. be safe .. dave.
 
Sorry, I am not much help on this one. My shotgun is a short barrel with screw in chokes. I'm not supposed to shoot round ball, and my gun shoots pretty good out to 35-40 yards with a 3-4 ratio load and a thick over powder wad. I don't hve a clue about cylinder choke small bores. I had a 20 double cylinder choke years ago that I never did get decent 20 yard pattern out of so I traded it away.
On the other smoothbore guns, these other guys know a lot more than I do.
 
:grin:
Hey Fellas
Yea I have used my brown bess to hunt grouse , and rabit (tried Turkey but it shines to much the silly things ran off when I moved :rotf: ).
The load I use was fairly simple. I used a winchester red wad, with 1 3/8 lead shot load, over shot card, these following a over powder card, the over powder wad. I use 100 grn of double F, I even wrapped these in a paper cartiage that I ripped open to make loading quicker. The papper cartiage also sealled the load tighter in the Barrel.
I found these loads out of the Bess seemed to string the shot great papper patterning though.
Well I hope this helps,
my best regards just a loyalist Dawg :hatsoff:
 
YOu don't need to use so much shot for Quail or rabbit. Try cutting back both the powder charge and the amount of shot you use. It will make a more pleasant load to shoot, and doing so will help your point that gun properly. I would suggest 65 grains of powder and 1 oz. o shot to start. Using the pastic shotcups you should get reasonable patterns at rabbit and quail ranges, which rarely exceed 25 yds.

As for Turkey, your load of 11 Gr. FFg, and 1 3/8 oz. of shot sounds good, assuming you are using #6, or #5 shot. Again, your shots will be taken at shorter ranges than modern shooters expect, but you should be good out to maybe 35 yds with that load. If I were you, I would drop that powder charge back to 90, and then 80 grains to see if the pattern doesn't tighten at the longer ranges. If I saw any improvement, I would then try the 5 grain increments, such as 85 and 95 grains of powder. Normally, with large gauge shotguns, you don't see much of any change with only a 5 grain change in the powder charge, unless you are using a good tight over powder wad. Your paper helps to seal the gases, but you are really relying on the plastic shotcup to prevent blow-by, and gas cutting. Are you doing anything to lube that barrel to cut down on how hard it is to clean out that plastic residue? I would suggest putting a glop of lube in the barrel after seating the paper on the powder, or simply put a glop of lube in the barrel before seating that plastic shotgun. That would run the lube down the barrel under the base of the plastic wad, where it will sandwich between the paper and the plastic, so that the barrel receives some lube to soften the powder fouling, at least. Wonderlube, or crisco would work, and, as they say," a little dab will do ya!"

Paul
 

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