Long Range PRB over 54?

[BigBoreBLR]

I target shoot my lyman GPR in 54 flintlock at 125 yards.

I am planning my next builld to be an open area big game rifle. Leaning heavily towards flintlock, but could do a percussion possibly.

I do have have a rice 1:66 54 cal D profile Reading 41" barrel. Like most rice barrels it's already breeched.

Do you gain much going over 54 cal in longer ranges. I was hoping to push 150 with PRB. But in an open area, the wind drift can be very unpredictable.

With the 1:66, I can push some powder on the ball. The barrel has round rifling to boot. Also, that D profile barrel and the rough cast early lancaster styled butt I have should absorb some recoil.

Think a reading should be a good comb to absorb some recoil? Or an early dickert might be better? My stock is a blank with plenty of room. I picked a monster straight grain. Also, my hands are medium sized. So a huge wrist could be an issue.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Do you gain much going over 54 cal in longer ranges. I was hoping to push 150 with PRB.

Shooting at the range and in the field are very different matters.
I'm one who believes we are working with an ancient system and should respect that fact. A 150 yard shot on game might be possible, but IMHO, not sporting or humane if only a wounding hit is made. My experience (others will disagree) is that once a round ball passes 100 yards, it runs out of 'legs' and drops dramatically. To adjust hold for 150 your ball is effectively dropping down onto the target making distance judging critical as only a couple feet misjudgment can result in a miss or wounded animal. I say, don't to it. :nono: Now those who do shoot at that range may begin throwing stones at me. :wink:

 

[54ball]

I'll not get into the moral high road stuff except for this....

Nature is very cruel. Sometimes even the gravy train shots with high power do not work out as hoped. That's how it goes. Hunting can be brutal and sometimes cruel. It's just a fact. I do believe many of the online Great White (as in virtue) Hunters have a very selective memory or have more key board time than woods time so take what's said in this alternative universe with a grain of salt.

At any range or hunting situation there is always a potential for a brutal mess. The further out you go, the chances increase for a bad hit.

If you can make that shot, so be it. Flintlock ignition increases the difficulty for long range accuracy. You have to do your part in dialing this in.
Personally, I would set up closer.

Long Range Roundball........

There is some historical precedents here so here goes....

Size does matter for long range RB...
Heavy Breeched barrel .62 to .69, that's 20 to 16 bore.
Barrel length....44 to 50 inches. Twist.....1-60 to 1-72.
Charge....experiment with a mixed powder load. By that I mean a mixture of 1fg and 2ffg. The theory is the course powder makes an even burn through the long barrel.
Such a rifle was built for chunk shooting at several hundred yards.

If you believe Bakeless/Draper, Daniel Boone is alleged to have made a very long shot with his heavy rifle Ticklicker with a double charge. Ticklicker was said to be 16 bore firing a 1 once ball.

I have seen and handled very heavy built Virginia and Tennessee rifles of various calibers. I do believe these rifles were for long range use.
So.....
Large Bore
Long barrel
Heavily built
Suitable rest
Experimentation in charge
Percussion for better precision
Flintlock for more of a challenge.

Again, for game I would just set up closer.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Do you gain much going over 54 cal in longer ranges. I was hoping to push 150 with PRB. But in an open area, the wind drift can be very unpredictable.

.

Here is a calculator... http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/web_apps/rb_ballistics.html

 

[wattlebuster]

Clint Eastwood say's it best. "A man's got to know his limitations" Do you know yours? I know mine. 75 yds is tops for me at big game so if I cant get within that then I pass on it. I think ALL roundballs run out of gas past 100 yds regardless of calibers. Just my opinion an worth all that you paid for it :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

I played on targets out that far and a lot further. Sighting error is HUGE when you get out there, in worst cases when you pass 200 obscuring most effects from wind (make that very light breezes) and errors in distance estimation. I've come to the point that I call distance work with round balls "flinging" rather than shooting.

If you're better than I am, bless you my son and may the force be with you.

 

[Walks with fire]

My personal limit is 100 yards with a ball rifle and would only shoot at deer at that range if I had a solid rest and a very good sight picture. If I want to extend that range I would go with a faster twist barrel and a bullet vs. a ball. I have such barrels but I prefer a ball rifle for hunting deer and know my limitations. Even with a solid rest and a bullet barrel with open sights 150 yards is about as far as I personally push it.

Many people are much better marksmen than I am and could maintain accuracy as those ranges and longer. As someone said already knowing my limitations and getting closer if need be or holding off the shot is something we all know subconsciously if we listen.

If you can hit within 4" from the bench with a ball rifle at 150 yards in practice you could do it in the field with a proper rest. As you go up in ball size trajectory becomes an issue at the shorter ranges.

I want extreme accuracy within 100 yards and that's were I put my effort. I expect a ragged hole at 50 yards with a hunting charge and 3" max at 100.

 

[Okie Hog]

i won't even think of shooting an animal in excess of 75 yards with .54 caliber patched round ball.

Am more comfortable with shots at 50 yards or less: Much prefer to sneak up on hogs and put round balls in their ears.

 

[Drago]

Maybe check out Forsyth style rifling, Large caliber, very heavy charges for flat trajectory.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Why not take a lesson from an actual expert, who had the ability to choose from patched, round ball and several types of conicals, yet chose the PRB and open sights? ADD to that, he was often hunting dangerous game. In 1867, Jamea Forsyth, developer of Forsyth rifling, wrote this:

"As a rule, the rifle should be able to drive the ball through and through the animal fired at."

"200 yards may be taken as the very outside limit at which it is ever advisable to fire at ordinary game; not because the rifle may not be accurate enough to ensure frequent hitting at much greater distances, but because of the probability of killing at such ranges is very small indeed; and humanity, not to say sportsmanlike feeling, demands that we shall not knowingly run so strong a chance of wounding, and consigning to a miserable and lingering death, the animals over which we have domination, to use but not to abuse. "

"..., most men who have shot much in the forests of India will agree that it is only on the open plain that such long shots even as this will be likely to present themselves. ..., at least one-half [of shots] are under 50 yards, three-fourths are under 75, and all, with scarcely an exception under 100; that is to say, these are the distances at which animals are usually killed in jungle shooting, and I imagine that the case is very much the same in other forest countries."


Now Forsyth was also an advocate of using large ball and very large powder loads so as to not need to use adjustable sights nor "hold over" when shooting out as far as 150 yards, and wanted his rifle to be able to go to 200 yards, and without sight adjustment and delivering a ball that would go though the animal. So he used 16 bore as a minimum with a whopping powder charge, on deer.

YET he did admit that most of his shots were well under 100 yards. :wink:

So I'd say yes you can develop a load that will be accurate and will deliver a humane shot out to 150 yards, but can you do that when shooting the rifle is another concern. It gets more and more difficult to accurately judge distances in the field the farther out you look, and also open sights when applied to such a small area as the lungs on a deer or even an elk at that distance or farther tend to be less precise that one would wish. At 50 yards that front sight post looks thin compared to the vitals region on deer, at 150 yards that same front sight post looks like you're looking at the deer over the top of a 2x4. I don't think the issue will be wind. I think it will be shot placement and a through and through hit.

LD

 

[Vaino]

The Hawken I built has a 37" bbl in .54 and has killed a few elk....the last was the lead cow at 107 yds. It ran 40 yds to me and collapsed. It has also killed a few elk at ranges a lot less than 107 yds so midrange height is importan also.

The very accurate load is 120 grs 3f w/ a .535 PRB and I know that lesser loads would kill an elk, but the above load enables me to hold dead on out to 125 yds....which to me is important in a hunting MLer and the country and terrain we hunt.

Formerly used a .50 w/ Buffalo Bullets and the "loopy" trajectory was the reason I went to the .54 PRB and the above load.

It's a big load but recoil doesn't bother me or my son who is now using it for both elk and deer.

One could go to a larger caliber like a .58, but to equal the trajectory of my .54, huge amounts of powder would be req'd and for many, the recoil would be intolerable.....Fred

 

[Rifleman1776]

150 yards in practice you could do it in the field

Not necessarily. :shake:
Very few people can judge range accurately. Perception of range varies greatly with terrain and lighting conditions. Take an easterner out of the forests and put him on the western plains and his brain will be completely bumfuzzled trying to dope out accurate ranges. I know, fancy high-tech rangefinders are available. But, IMHO, if yer going to use one of those, get a bolt action thuty-aught six. :v

 

[tenngun]

A .54 at a mv of 2100 fps will drop to about 950 fps at hundred and fifty yards. A mv of 1600 fps will drop to about 800 fps that can produce a killing wound, but elks ain’t just deer on steroids, they are a bigger tougher animal.
Ball just doesn’t handle super and transonic velocities well.
As a military arm a gun just has to hit. A wound is as good as a kill. People are famously shot at long ranges, and as early as the sixteenth century people were shooting at three hundred yards in competition. However shooting at game we want quick clean kills.
There are a lot of examples of animals killed at long range with ball. However to use ball ethically, to get your one shot quick kills get close hit hard.

 

[tenngun]

Just letting my mind run free here.800- 900 fps is about what you can get from a .54 horse pistol. Would you consider that up to elk?

 

[azmntman]

:idunno: Have never kilt an elk with a pistol. I do use 80 gr 3f and a .54 and/or a .58 PRB with great success though, never shot once with that further than about 75 yds but they have all went down within site and a few cows just dropped.

Elk are funny critters, I once shot a cow grazing with a .50 horandy great plains? I thought I missed cuz she didnt even look up. As I spilled 40 grs and loaded 40 for another shot she started to tremble and went down just as I started to bring the rifle up again.

A buddys pop who was a G&F detective hit a cow dbl lung in archery about 30 yrs ago and she had started to tremble when a vanagon full of folks appearing fresh from woodstock arrived at the tank and she took off. went another 1/4 mile after being seconds from dropping!

With any elk ya hit em hard and wait about 10-15 min max if they dont drop and you'll likley find dinner withing 100yds. Just DONT spook em, they have an incredible will to live.

 

[Jimbo47]

I basically hunt the same way with my .54 Hawken the same as I do when bow hunting, so a shot that is 35 yards with the bow is my limit, and 50 yards out to 75 yards is my limit with the Hawken.
I've passed on good deer that were beyond my range limit, and never have had to regret passing or making a poor shot to fuel my ego.
Back in the day, a long range shot was the difference between being fed or starving, but in this day in time it's just not necessary.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I've passed on good deer that were beyond my range limit, and never have had to regret passing or making a poor shot to fuel my ego.

:applause:

LD

 

[jrmflintlock]

Reading all these post got me thinking and looking at things (age of commenters)

Us youngsters sometimes think further is better, bigger is better, faster is better, more powder is better! I have been guilty of it myself but after looking and listening (reading) on this forum I see the wisdom of years.

Just sayin... Target shooting is one thing. Hunting is another. I will leave it at that.

:v

 

[Walks with fire]

A VW Beetle doesn't make a good race care.

 

[nkbj]

Just saying, for a large bore hunting rifle a TC Hawken with 32" long .62 barrel on it handles like no other TC I ever shot. Yeah, I like it; even at over 1500fps it's a pleasure to shoot.