Longer barrel equals tighter pattern??

[roundball]

I read some posts or an article somewhere that claimed with all else equal, a longer smoothbore barrel would give a tighter shot pattern.

ie: 32" vs. 38" cylinder bore...the 38" would produce a tighter shot pattern.

Anybody have any actual hands on experience or official reference documentation to know if thats an across-the-board fact and not just an old wives tale?

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I can only go by my own experience. My 42" 20 bore fowler always gave tighter patterns than my 28" 20 bore double did. Same loads. Cylinder bore in both. The longer bore just seems to work better. I can't explain it scientifically, but others have had the same results.

 

[roundball]

Any way to quantify the difference, for example:
Percentage...or would you say "significantly" improved...or was it just a casual thing where it seemed there were a few more pellets in the pattern?

 

[Mike Brooks]

Go buy your self a 30" 12 bore and a 60" 12 bore and do your own experimenting. Long barrels have superior patterns in my experience, 28 bore through 10 bore.
There is a reason all the old long fowlers had long barrels and it had nothing to do with poor powder quality.
We've been through this about a million times on this board.

 

[roundball]

Go buy your self a 30" 12 bore and a 60" 12 bore and do your own experimenting. Long barrels have superior patterns in my experience, 28 bore through 10 bore.
There is a reason all the old long fowlers had long barrels and it had nothing to do with poor powder quality.
We've been through this about a million times on this board.

Mike...if the question bothered you as much as it apparently did, you could have just ignored it
:grin:
Are you saying there are threads which specifically quantify percentages of pattern improvements rather than just anecdotal comments?

 

[gizamo]

These threads have only further confused me...but then again, I'm easily confused :grin:

Guess I've always wondered more about powder charges, wads, shot loads...then just assuming that one single thing leads to another.

Saying this poorly, but I believe you can blow-out your shot pattern in many more ways then just barrel length...

giz

 

[Lorne Johnson]

You are not confused. There are a multitude of factors that affect patterns. And . . . what constitutes a "better" pattern means different things at different ranges for different purposes.

When shooting at real moving targets, pointing and swinging, and handling, which are related to each other and (to some extent) to barrel length, are also important--sometimes more important.

 

[roundball]

Saying this poorly, but I believe you can blow-out your shot pattern in many more ways then just barrel length...

Of course...but the question was if all else was equal, would a longer smoothbore barrel give a tighter shot pattern...

 

[Mike Brooks]

Are you saying there are threads which specifically quantify percentages of pattern improvements rather than just anecdotal comments?

Exactly what are you driving at? I'm certainly not going to go build two guns and do weeks of pattern work just to satisfy your idle curiosity.
Do a search, there's tons of information on this subject on this board.

rather than just anecdotal comments

You're not likely to get much help from those with years of experience with long barreled fowling guns with a snotty attitude. I have been shooting long barreled flint fowling guns for 30 years now and regrettably never recorded my results for your research.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Of course...but the question was if all else was equal, would a longer smoothbore barrel give a tighter shot pattern...

I have found that getting two barrels of the same length to shoot the same density of patterns to be very difficult when they are loaded the same. Each gun seems to shoot differently and requires working up a specific load, no such ability to state "all things being equal".

 

[gizamo]

roundball,

I knew I worded my answer poorly...

What I should have addressed was that given two differing barrel lengths...would it not equally make sense to adjust the loading to get the best performance.

I guess that I'm asking...if you change just one of the variables, why wouldn't it effect the overall result? But can't you make an adjustment to overcome the one change?

My question hinges on your presumption that changing one variable allows one to continue on a apples to apples assumption. Doesn't that change effectively make it apples to oranges?


giz

 

[roundball]

Are you saying there are threads which specifically quantify percentages of pattern improvements rather than just anecdotal comments?

Exactly what are you driving at? I'm certainly not going to go build two guns and do weeks of pattern work just to satisfy your idle curiosity.
Do a search, there's tons of information on this subject on this board.

rather than just anecdotal comments

You're not likely to get much help from those with years of experience with long barreled fowling guns with a snotty attitude. I have been shooting long barreled flint fowling guns for 30 years now and regrettably never recorded my results for your research.

:grin:
Thanks Mike
:hatsoff:

 

[Skychief]

Anybody have any actual hands on experience or official reference documentation to know if thats an across-the-board fact and not just an old wives tale?

I think I have enough "actual hands on experience" to offer my perspective. Longer barrels will have denser patterns compared to their shorter barrelled counterparts. I can offer no percentages, data, etc, etc. Also, I know the "all things being equal" is a tricky subject. Just the same, from my experiences, I BELIEVE in longer tubes throwing denser (think turkey hunting) patterns.

I offer the above from my experiences with many friends developing turkey loads out of unchoked fowlers and shotguns of varying barrel lengths and gauges.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Any way to quantify the difference, for example:
Percentage...or would you say "significantly" improved...or was it just a casual thing where it seemed there were a few more pellets in the pattern?

I would say significantly improved. Where the 42" barrel gave consistent, even patterns, the 28" gave consistent patterns with gaps big enough for a quail and sometimes a grouse to slip through. This was at 30 yards. The long fowler was using shot charges from 7/8 ounce to 1 and 3/8 ounce and anywhere from 2 to 3 drams of FFg GOEX and held the pattern nicely with all loads. The shotgun was all done at 20 yards and no amount of fiddling would change the pattern enough to matter. Though it probably made no difference, I want to mention that the fowler is a flintlock and the shotgun was a percussion gun (I don't have it anymore). The friend I swapped it to doesn't have it anymore either. He's having a percussion long fowler built so it will be interesting to see how it patterns. It's a 16 bore with a 48" barrel made to trsrmble a conversion from flint I think.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

You are not confused. There are a multitude of factors that affect patterns. And . . . what constitutes a "better" pattern means different things at different ranges for different purposes.

When shooting at real moving targets, pointing and swinging, and handling, which are related to each other and (to some extent) to barrel length, are also important--sometimes more important.

Well, not really. A good even pattern is a good even pattern at any range. The purpose is to hit what you aim at, and that is dependent on an even and consistently hole free pattern and a short shot string.

People who have little or no experience with long fowlers often make the mistake of thinking that they are slow handlers. A properly made and balanced fowler built in scale to it's bore is a lively and fast handling birding piece.
Even a fowler-musket, if not too massively over built, is useful as a fowler.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Powder charges, wads and shot charges are important. And they need to be worked up for the individual gun. But we're speaking here of a case where the only variable is barrel length. Loads have been optimised, the shooter is familiar with both guns, the guns are cylinder bore and we don't need to swing at anything, because we and the patterning board are both stationary and the range is precisely known. Simple and easy. And given all this, what have people experienced regarding the patterning capabilities of long barrels versus shorter ones. Empirical experience in short. With any scientific data that is available thrown in for good measure. I know what my experience has always been both with my own guns and when shooting friends guns. The longer barrel has always patterned way better. I have enough faith in this personal experience that when I ordered my 10 gauge fowler, I specified a 48" barrel. I have no idea, scientifically speaking, why this is true, but Roundball's question is a fair one and I hope somebody can supply a reason for this phenomenon.

 

[roundball]

My experiences with smoothbore Flintlocks has all been with moderate length 32" GM barrels for the past few years...I'm used to their barrel lengths, their handling characteristics, and pattern results on clay targets/doves/squirrels/crows/turkeys, both with cylinder bores and jug chokes.

Toying with the idea of having a fowler built for hunting...not interested in building one to necessarily meet any preconceived historical specs or anything...just a functional fullstock smoothbore Flintlock.
Starting to explore pros & cons of barrel length to make an optimal barrel length selection for a variety of uses and situations. For example, the interest in quantifying "how much" a really long barrel improves pattern density is to determine if that's good enough for Turkey at 40yds without a jug choke, compared to a 32" GM barrel that's been jug choked as a Turkey barrel for 40yd head shots.

Or there's the question are there other offsetting benefits to having a more moderate barrel length, ie: 36"/38", and just get it jugged for tighter patterns. (I wouldn't be using it for PRBs as I have deer rifles)

 

[Mike Brooks]

Some years ago a friend and I were doing some pattern work. I had a jug choked (.015) 12 bore with a 38" barrel and he had a cylinder bore 20 bore with a 42" barrel. His patterns were far tighter than mine.Some what frustrating at the time.... I don't recall the loads.
I have always had tremendous results with small bores and long barrels....say 28ga. to 20 ga. and 46" to 48" barrels. I found 28 bores to shoot incredible patterns with 1oz to 1 1/4oz. Great for things sitting still but quite a challenge wing shooting. Nothing to do with swinging the gun, but more to do with shooting a "string" of shot due to the long column as it was stacked in the small bored barrel. These guns look great on paper, but when your chasing skeet and swing fast you spray quite a string and it is difficult to get the string where the bird will fly through it.
I assume this holds true for large bores as well and I believe that's why all the old flint wild fowlers had 60" barrels, give or take. They were shooting long columns of shot at sitting waterfowl, nothing in flight. I have also found if your going to stack long columns of shot you also have to put in more powder to get the shot moving fast enough to be effective. At some point the recoil will get uncomfortable, unless you go with a heavy gun.(12 to 14 lbs or so) I have patterned 10 bores with 50" barrels going up to 2 5/8oz shot and 130gr powder. Stout recoil, but manageable. I'm thinking at least another 6 or 8 inches would make a 10 bore much more effective for wild fowling (or turkeys for that matter)

 

[MSW]

being a lazy cuss (and an inveterate cheapskate) i heven't done a search of the forum to see about a scientific test, but

i would recommend buying a long barrel of a fairly common guage (say 12 or 20) and making a sort of bench gun, just for patterning, with no stock and a very minimalist ignition system... work up the load for that length and then cut two or four inches off the muzzle and start over again... viola: scientifical data, with charts and graphs and data points and maybe even some coefficient of variablilty and all the scary calculus stuff... all we have to do is find someone who has an inexpensive long barrel...


hmmm.

 

[poordevil]

Marlin made (or still does make) a Long Tom 12 ga with a 36? in barrel for geese. But then again cop shot guns with 18 in barrels make a 30" pattern at 30yrd.

As far as talking about this before, it seems that EVERY topic of muzzleloaders has been covered at one time or other here So should we close down the site?