Longhunter's knife?

[Stophel]

I have a straight knife by Scott Summerville, and I knew he was making some folding knives, but my finances at the moment are not quite prepared to be spent on such a thing! :haha:

 

[Rifleman1776]

Can't argue, that is a fine looking knife.
But, if I were heading out for the unknown and needed a knife to serve me for multiple purposes like skinning, camp, fighting, etc., I would insist on having a good finger protector. A hand can slide easily forward to the blade when blood slickery. It has happened to me more than once but I have been lucky to avoid injury. Admittedly, I have never studied styles of knives used through the years so can only comment on what I would want and presume others back in the day would not be interested in inviting injury eithers. Especially when it would be so easy to have that one margin of protection built in.

 

[Stophel]

Guards are conspicuously absent on 18th century knives. To the point of non-existence except on double edged daggers. And they're for blocking another blade, rather than keeping your fingers off your own.

Having a knife with a wide blade and a good dropped edge (below the handle) gives you a decent "guard" to keep your fingers from slipping up onto the edge.

 

[Stophel]

I won't fault you though for putting a guard on your knife. I kinda like them myself!

 

[Rifleman1776]

Guards are conspicuously absent on 18th century knives.

Perhaps one of many-many reasons why life expectancy was only about 45 years for the average man. Just a thought.

 

[Sean Gadhar]

"Table" and "Case" knives were also imported in large quantities, and they can make for a slightly more upscale "hunting knife". ...

:redface: Don't look my ignorance is showing :redface:

The only case knife I know of is the brand "Case"

The one in the glass case at the hardware store we all drooled over as kids.

Can someone post a link to some "case knives" :nono: hopefully not ones made by CASE or I'm lost for sure :haha:

 

[Stophel]

From the always accurate Wikipedia:
"A case knife is a name used throughout the American South to refer to a table knife, i.e. a knife intended for use at the dining table. The origin of this usage comes from a time when inns did not customarily provide eating utensils with meals. The table fork was relatively new, and was often sold in combination with a knife and, sometimes, a spoon. Thus the term refers to a knife that was sold in a case, as part of a set of utensils intended for use in dining."

A neat set with rather unusual bone handles: http://www.roys-antiques.com.au/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=68&category_id=2&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=33

Here is a set with silver handles. http://www.myfamilysilver.com/mp/item/20153/an-18th-century-silver-pistol-handled-knife-and-fork


This set has green dyed bone handles, which were all the rage at the time: http://paquoudenek.blogspot.com/2013/10/a-anglo-american-circa-1770-1810.html

I have photos that someone posted on "another message board" of an 18th century case knife that has had its round tip ground into a nice point, along with an 18th century period quote (I don't have it copied) saying something to the effect of "the only knife I had with me was a case knife with the point ground sharp, as I had lost my butcher knife".

:wink:

 

[Sean Gadhar]

And now I know. Thank You Sir. makes total sense.

 

[Ron LaClair]

Here's a couple of mine. The top one is buffalo horn and the bottom is stained bone.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Longrifledoc, just FYI if the day is a hot one, and you have coated the under-barrel with RIG, and you shoot several shots at the range, the added heat from the barrel often causes the RIG to thin and run, and in my case gets grease all over and messes up other stuff... like my wife's car seats on the ride home. :shocked2: Spar varnish is better..., wish I'd a heard about that before I tried RIG.

Now back to knives...

NWTF Longhunter, what type of steel did you use on the above two knives that you made?



LD

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Perhaps one of many-many reasons why life expectancy was only about 45 years for the average man. Just a thought.

UM well the low "life expectancy" levels are due to infant and child mortality from diseases, not accidents as an adult. IF you lived to 21 years of age the life expectancy for an English subject by the first half of the 16th century was 71. :wink:

"Guards" are commonly absent from most utility knives unto this day. Fighting knives are another matter, but otherwise, commonly not found. (for example, the Mora Swedish Boy Scout knife comes with a guard..., until the boy has shown he knows how to use it and then it's removed.) Butcher and/or chef's knives haven't changed much in shape nor added guards in centuries though the steel and handle materials are improved, and the heel of the blade, seems to have enlarged as cutting techniques have changed, not due to safety, but that's personal observation so may be inaccurate...

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

LD, my reference was for the American colonist and/or mountain man. Yes, infant mortality was a common, and hugely tragic, fact of life. But other factors we might take for granted today limited life expectancy severely. One cause of death not often discussed was from the Hook worm. Walking in bare feet and stepping on human or animal feces was the source of this deadly worm. And, it is what killed most children.
As for the finger guard. I googled both 'hunting knife' and 'skinning knife' images. The modern hunting knives have about a 90% rate with guards or finger grooves. For skinning knives, it jumps up to about 99%. I would have to hit the books to continue this debate. But my memory seems to support my theory. Guards were important, lack of same could be deadly.

 

[Stophel]

As to historicity, whether or not there are guards on modern knives is totally irrelevant.

In the 17th century and earlier, it was common for men to carry big fighting knives. There are some REALLY outstanding big knives from the 16th and 17th centuries, particularly from Germany. Fantastic designs, very beautiful big knives that Jim Bowie or Rambo would be proud to carry. Long, wide blades, full tangs, big guards, often with side guards. But these were self defense weapons, not really general purpose (or even hunting) knives. By the end of the 17th century, the big knife was falling out of fashion, and the smallsword became the preferred self defense edged(sort of) weapon. Hunting swords were also often worn. Of course, there are regional exceptions, like Scotland, where they retained the big dirks (without any real guard, by the way), Spain and other Mediterranean areas, where big knives and daggers remained popular. The big fighting knife did not regain popularity until Jim Bowie and dime novels. Think about it: if Bowie's knife wasn't SO different from the average knife, what would be so special about it???

But these are all FIGHTING knives. The guards (if any) were used to protect the combatants hand against the edge of the opponent's blade, not his own.

And what types of knives are really required for hunting? Skinning knives don't have to be all that big, and even modern skinning knives don't often have guards. Many people do their skinning and field dressing with folding knives (just as they probably did 200 years ago). No guards there. For butchering the animal you might use a.... butcher knife :grin:

It took me a long while to get it into my head that the modern mindset with knives (as with SO much else) is very different than it was 230 years ago. Today we have KaBars, Gil Hibben, Randall, and innumerable others. Fighting knives pushed as "hunting knives", and we like to think that SURELY they had the 18th century equivalent of a Jimmy Lile survival knife. But, they didn't.

Personally, I can do with or without a guard on a knife, though I will admit that some guardless designs, like many Puukko knives, are kinda scary, with fat handles and narrow blades.

I find a knife like this one from Scott Summerville to be a nice size and shape for all kinds of cutting work. The edge being well below the handle acts as a guard, of sorts, and keeps my finger from riding up onto the edge. This dropped edge also makes it easier to sharpen, and you get a sharp edge all the way back, which is good for chopping cuts, where a guard would get in the way.

 

[Stophel]

(by the way, I am glad to see that the newest trend in "bushcrafting"/"woosdcrafting" is away from the sawback, hollow-handle-stuffed-with-fishing-line, movie-type Bowie knife. What are popular now are very simple, straightforward plain knives with 5" blades and minimal guards, if any. Though I do find the whole "batoning" firewood business to be ridiculous! :grin: )

 

[Ron LaClair]

NWTF Longhunter, what type of steel did you use on the above two knives that you made?

1095 high carbon steel

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Quote:Guards are conspicuously absent on 18th century knives.

Perhaps one of many-many reasons why life expectancy was only about 45 years for the average man. Just a thought.

LD, my reference was for the American colonist and/or mountain man. .....

Guards were important, lack of same could be deadly.

Amercan Colonist or frontiersman, the knives came from England, and the vast majority traded arrived without guards and did not have guards added. Self-Injury from a cut on the hand from sliding forward on a bloody handle would be more likely when processing meat in the field than in combat simply because processing meat in the field happened vastly more often than did fighting with the knife... yet no guards on the majority of the frontier knives. A guard might be important in an individual case, sure a cut on the hand when fighting might end up with an individual's death, a cut on the hand prior to the fight would be just as bad, but this scenario was obviously not very common. As a whole, IF they were as important as you assert... guards would've been on those old knives, or an equal amount of guard bearing fighting knives would've been sold along with the trade knives.

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

Skinning knives don't have to be all that big, and even modern skinning knives don't often have guards. Many people do their skinning and field dressing with folding knives (just as they probably did 200 years ago). No guards there.

Cannot disagree. But I was speculating that some/many losses of life occurred and went unrecorded because of the lack of a guard on hunting/fighting knives. When hunting I will not use a knife for field dressing that does not have a guard. Blood makes the handle very-very slickery and, at time, almost impossible to hold. Last deer I killed I did cut myself and didn't even know it because of the cold. And that was with a guard. Without the guard my nickname today might be 'lefty'. While butchering one can be more deliberate and watch what you are doing. My favorite butcher knife does not have a finger guard.

 

[LongrifleDoc]

Thank you. I think I am going to follow your first advice and just leave the stock in place. After following these threads I am less concerned about the evil effects of black powder.

 

[Schirf]

I've killed a lot of deer and don't know that I've used the same knife for more than two or three seasons. I lose them like crazy - not sure why. Well, that and my son has claimed a few. I'm watching farm/estate sales for blades now... thinking I can get a few cheap blades to make into appropriate longhunter style tools.

 

I've killed a lot of deer and don't know that I've used the same knife for more than two or three seasons. I lose them like crazy - not sure why.

Sounds like a personal problem, not "Accoutrements". :rotf: