Longhunters with smoothbores?

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I was wondering - how common was it for longhunters (those farmers-turned-hunters in the winter) to have been armed with smoothbores? I've read some articles about it, but am still curious - web searches aren't bringing anything to light...

Many thanks!
 
Long hunters were after hides and not meat. They preferred summer hides as the hair was easier to remove. Better a single small hole in the hide than a musket sized hole, or multiple holes. Farmers usually raised their own meat, and smoked or otherwise cured it for winter. A smooth bore would have suited most farmers better than a rifle, and would have been cheaper to purchase. When and where would also have to be considered.
 
When I think of a long hunter it is some one that leaves North Carolina or Virginia and takes an extended trip into Kentucky/Tennessee to obtain deer hides to sell for a "buck" a piece back in the settlements.
 
I'm no expert, but it seems the longhunters were of more Anglo Saxon heritage, favoring the rifle, whereas the French and Indian hunters seemed to favor smoothbores. Of course, place, financial status, employ, etc. probably had a lot to do with it, along with bleedover fom one class/culture to another. Ideas? Treestalker.
 
There may be a lot of truth in what you say. Many see the long hunter as being poor and living off the wilderness while making a few dollars by hunting. In reality, they were quite wealthy by the standards of the frontier, and really in general. They could well afford not just rifles, but nice rifles, accouterments, and nice clothing. Those that survived, and those whose hide take was not stolen before delivery.
 
Flintlock Fanatic said:
I was wondering - how common was it for longhunters (those farmers-turned-hunters in the winter) to have been armed with smoothbores? I've read some articles about it, but am still curious - web searches aren't bringing anything to light...

Many thanks!

According to most information I have found the term "longhunter" refered to the distance of the shot rather than the length of the rifle. To this end, I believe, a rifled barrel would be more preferred than a smoothbore.

Toomuch
..........
Shoot Flint
 
Toomuch said:
Flintlock Fanatic said:
I was wondering - how common was it for longhunters (those farmers-turned-hunters in the winter) to have been armed with smoothbores? I've read some articles about it, but am still curious - web searches aren't bringing anything to light...

Many thanks!

According to most information I have found the term "longhunter" refered to the distance of the shot rather than the length of the rifle. To this end, I believe, a rifled barrel would be more preferred than a smoothbore.

Toomuch
..........
Shoot Flint
I'd always heard that the term "longhunter" referred to the length of time they'd be gone hunting which could be weeks or months.
 
crockett said:
When I think of a long hunter it is some one that leaves North Carolina or Virginia and takes an extended trip into Kentucky/Tennessee to obtain deer hides to sell for a "buck" a piece back in the settlements.

That is the meaning of the term as used by historians. :thumbsup:

To keep things in perspective, it is the brief period around 1760 to the 1770s and is in the geographic area of what is now eastern Tennessee/Kentucky as first explored by market hide hunters from the Holston Valley area near present Chilhowie, VA. A Longhunter had to be well off enough to be able to equip himself with guns, horses & supplies for a six month & possibly longer hunt. IF he came back with multiple horseloads of hides, he made a Lot of money. Of course not all came back with their gear or horses and some didn't make it back at all. Now if someone is using the term "longhunter" in a generic way to mean backwoodsman, frontiersman, trapper, scout, local meat hunter, it opens up a very wide range of times and locations with a corresponding choice of guns.
 
Would depend on time and place. Upstate New York in 1760, different then west Penn-west Virgina in 1770.An over the mountain man even well into the ARW could have well reached for a smoothy, or the ancestor of the southern rifle.As said above lots of smooth rifles were being made. First growth forrest can have a lot less under growth then or woods today, so in a place where I might not see a deer outside smoothy range may have been to close for practical hunting back then. I think a lot more smoothies then myth suggest was found all over the frontier.
 
Flintlock Fanatic said:
I was wondering - how common was it for longhunters (those farmers-turned-hunters in the winter) to have been armed with smoothbores? I've read some articles about it, but am still curious - web searches aren't bringing anything to light...

Many thanks!

No way of knowing, some surely had them but I don't think the serious hunter did. There are some things we DO know. Such as there is a lot of disagreement today concerning rifles vs smoothbores.
Smoothbores, unless they were "very small bore" (what every that meant circa 1756) cost more to shoot and the ammo was too heavy. Since the typical fowler was unlikely to be much under 20 bore.

Then there are the accuracy issues compared to the rifle.
By the 1750s-60s the traders were upset with the natives using rifles because they reduced sales of powder and lead. The military officers were concerned because the rifle in the hands of the natives was dangerous due to the way the natives made war.
The more money one spends on lead and powder the less profit. The more noise the more dangerous. Shooting and MISSING is really bad, noise with no benefit, even if only hunting.
So a market hunter not hunting water fowl is best served with a rifle in the 40-44 caliber range. Allows head or neck shots on deer or bear at ranges to 50+ yards. No trailing needed, no holes in the hide. Lung shots would also be effective.
Given that the longhunters were often gone for so long that putting in crops was impossible, Boone returned from on hunt and Rebecca had a babe in arms the was fathered by Boone's brother. So he was gone too long to be classified as a farmer. He was a hunter. IIRC he was gone for well over a year on this trip.
I would also point out that its VERY difficult to deal with a rifle armed adversary with a smoothbore. And the PA natives that the Creeks and others were armed with a significant number of rifles, in PA at least, by the 1740s, the southern tribes Creeks etc, by the 1750s.
See DeWitt Bailey's "British Flintlock Miltary Rifles" the chapters on Tory and Indian rifles. Some of the accounts from the past are very interesting.
Back to cost and weight.
10 pounds of lead made into 44 caliber balls makes about 570 balls more than enough for a year of long hunting. 5-6 pounds of powder to shoot them. 10 pounds cast into balls for a 20 ga light fowler makes 200 max and for almost any purpose in Colonial America the larger ball is of no or at best very little advantage, its just heavier and needs more powder. Large bore early rifles? 42-44 caliber range rifles were apparently common by the 1770s if not before. The Haymaker rifle, which has seen a lot of use after its original owner was killed in Kentucky in 1774 (he was on a survey mission at the time) is 52 caliber today, far side of "normal" for a rifle barrel kentucky of the time from most reports.

Dan
 
Farmers turned hunters in the fall were a different sort that purely market hunters who made their living (or attempted to) exclusively by hunting & trapping. With big game plentiful, and money being made via the deer hide, I think a rifle gun would have been the preferred weapon of the market hunter. That being said, he trade ledgers of Baynton, Wharton & Morgan list both rifles and fowling pieces of varying grades. They had trading houses in both western PA and the Illinois country. One entry mentions in their ledgers mentions a hunter turning in a rifle for credit at the end of the hunt. So not all market hunters owned their own firelock.

It has been stated that the use of the rifle was largely regional. There were market hunters in New York as well and Sir William Johnson lists fowling pieces on his ledgers as well. There is also an account of him wanting a rifle from a reputable Pennsylvania gunsmith.

I may be interjecting some 21st century thought here, but if my livelihood depended upon it, I would want the most accurate gun available. If I were a farmer looking to supplement my food source & maybe make a little spare money, and have a suitable gun for militia duty then a smoothbore might be a better option.
 
I am very happy with a flintlock trade musket. gets the job done and more useful. take less buckskins than one of them rifled ones.
 
I agree, a longhunter would probably want to be armed with a rifle if at all possible. On the other hand, lead is heavy, powder not so much so. Lead from a smoothbore, or rifle for that matter, can be recovered and reused over and over. Why do you think they made bag molds? A supply of powder and flints would be more important than a large supply of lead. People in those days were much more thrifty than we are today. It's been stated on many threads here that .58 was a common (civilian) smooth bore ga. A .58 doesn't use much more powder than a .50 rifle and if the lead is reused the weight is a moot point. I agree, some longhunters were well off, AFTER a successful hunt. How well off was the average hunter before his first SUCCESSFUL long hunt. Are we to assume that only the affluent were going on long hunts? On his FIRST hunt the average longhunter probably went with the best arm he was able to obtain, be it rifled or smooth. :wink:
 
If I may jump back in, One consideration for a smoothbore vs a rifle is the fact that it takes a hard, long days work to rifle a barrel resulting in considerable increase in price due to time and gunsmith's wages. Evidently smoothrifles were not uncommon, and probably accurate enough for shooting deer at 75 yds or so. But we're talking about a seasonal hunter, right? The longhunter as has been pointed out, was a professional long-distance and long time hunter to whom accuracy was everything and fancy work on a gun unwanted expense. I once held in my hands an original (George?) Shroyer rifle that had about a 44 inch heavy barrel in about 50 cal with good curly maple and a brass patchbox and furniture, and a good flintlock, that's all. I thought, 'that's exactly what I would have wanted in a rifle had I been a longhunter' :thumbsup: George B.
 
Instead of conjecture, perhaps we can consult sources that quote period records, such as Sons of A Trackless Forest by Mark Baker, and The Hunters of Kentucky by Ted Belue.

There were many types of hunters, subsistence, market, hide, contract, and longhunters. The term longhunter (iirc) came from the venacular of the time, where expeditions were formed to go on a "long hunt".

In SOTF, it's documented that George Morgan employed hunters for meat to supply his trading post, as well as hides. He sold both rifles and "fusils - neat". The fusils being much cheaper in price,... about 1/4 the cost of a rifle.

Morgan isn't kind enough to tell us what size bore his fusils had, but his post traded with the French as well as the Indians, so they may have been as large as 20 gauge, or as small as 28 gauge.

A rifle that shoots a .490 ball is roughly a 38 bore, so you are getting ten more shots to the pound than the fellow shooting a .530 ball aka a 28 bore, and 14 more shots to the pound of lead than a person shooting a .570 ball aka a 24 bore.

However, it's probably more likely that at the beginning of the longhunter decade, that the rifles were around .54 caliber/28 gauge. If that is the case, then we are talking perhaps a 4-shot advantage over a 24 bore fusil. So the cost advantage of the ammunition is pretty nil at that point.

Then add the accuracy... a rifled pieces is much more accurate at 100 yards than would be the fusil, even if the fusil had a rear sight, but if the hunters are harvesting animals at 50 yards on average, you lose a lot of the accuracy advantage of the rifle.

As for the bag-mold... the advantage of the rifle is a snug fit between patch, ball, and rifling in the barrel, so the rifles were made with a mold to fit the bore. The bores of the time period varying a bit from rifle to rifle, a lot more than today, so to get that accuracy the owner would need a mold as store bought ball would likely not fit well. It is doubtful that the idea was for the rifle shooter to recover the ball from the animal for re-use on a regular basis, for if you have a load that will take advantage of the rifle's accuracy at 100 yards and allow you to recover the ball... that load will still blow through the deer at under 50 yards. If you do the reverse, and lower the powder charge to consistantly recover the ball in animals at 50 yards or less distance, you will miss or simply wound a lot of animals at a range near 100 yards.

So the cost per single ball may or may not have been that significant, especially when you add in the cost savings for the fusil vs. the rifle. Where the smoothbore loses badly is the cost of a shot load, and the amount of meat that load will harvest when compared to a single bullet from a rifle and the amount of meat and the hide that shot will harvest when applied to a deer.

If Morgan was having fusils shipped to him from his suppliers in Philadelphia, all the way to Kaskaskia..., then somebody was hunting with them. On the other hand, in Morgan's records documented in SOTF, Baker only notes only one fusil being used by one of the many hunters employed by Morgan. So the evidence appears to show that yes a hunter employed at a trading post did use a fusil, but the vast majority used a rifle.

So a person whose occupation in the 1760's was hunting, apparently would choose a rifle, either on credit or for cash.

Now as for other persons who hunted.., for meat on the table to supplement salted meat, or simply because they had no other meat source than wild game, a fusil might often be the gun of choice for those individuals as the cost of the gun might outweigh other factors. That's assuming there was a choice; assuming they had the access to both rifles and fusils for sale.

As for Virginia, and the area known today as Northern Virginia, there were a lot of riflemen in that region. Maryland's first two companies of riflemen in the AWI came from around Cumberland, and that is at least 5 days on horseback from Lovettsville, and probably closer to a week if not 10 days West of that area, so there is a good chance a man whose main income was hunting who hailed from the Northern edge of VA along the Potomac, had a rifle.

LD
 
Loyalist Dave said:
Instead of conjecture, perhaps we can consult sources that quote period records, such as Sons of A Trackless Forest by Mark Baker, and The Hunters of Kentucky by Ted Belue.

There were many types of hunters, subsistence, market, hide, contract, and longhunters. The term longhunter (iirc) came from the venacular of the time, where expeditions were formed to go on a "long hunt".
LD

Indeed, Longhunters went out for a "long time" and often or usually "long distances" from their starting point/s. They went out on horseback with pack animals as well. Your use of the term "expeditions" hits the nail on the head because they were organized that way in the "Longhunter Period."

Great Post.
Gus
 
One other thing, some of it depends on what you consider a smoothbore. There is a smoothbore rifle that looks like a rifle except the bore is smooth. At the opposite end are the fusils, sort of plain style, crude hardware, big musket type locks. In between are the fowlers, some that look rather sleek and you might think at first its a rifle until you take a second look. For a farmer turned hunter in the winter, hunting near home, the fowler might have been pretty common.
A long hunter after deer hides, it seems the greater accuracy of a rifle would make that the first choice.
 
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