Amazing what a simple question will do at times? :grin:
Longrifles made in Pennsylvania?
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Well I thought I should throw a wrench at the monkey or flys at the soup. Rifles seem to have come out of northern Italy before 1500. Henry 8 had a rifle, ah made in the germanies. Over Mountian men at Kings Mountian had rifles, and well experienced with them. How fast did rifle cultured spread south?
I'm hard pressed to think American rifles all grew out of a single place or one time. A "golden age" long rifle is different then a jäger rifle from 1700. In between there is no place you can draw a line and say guns on the right are American longs, guns on the left are Jagger's. It's a blue green thing.
I'm hard pressed to think American rifles all grew out of a single place or one time. A "golden age" long rifle is different then a jäger rifle from 1700. In between there is no place you can draw a line and say guns on the right are American longs, guns on the left are Jagger's. It's a blue green thing.
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Hi,
Gus provides some very useful information. First, I would urge folks to read David Hackett Fisher's Pulitzer prize winning book, "Albion's Seed". It is a long read but it lays out the cultural divisions related to the 4 waves of immigration into colonial British America from England. Those 4 waves were the "Displaced Cavaliers" into tidewater Virginia, the Puritans into New England, the Quakers into southern Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware, and the "Border people" (sometimes called Scotch-Irish) into the frontiers. The divisions of folkways and political ideas associated with those different waves of immigration haunt this country to the present day. In tidewater Virginia, the ruling class was displaced cavaliers from the English Civil War whose ideas of freedom was that an elite society was free and everyone else were peasants. Some of them would have experience with the limited rifle culture in England of rich land owners with populations of fallow and other deer living on their estates. They were the few with the privilege of hunting large mammals with rifles. Therefore, it is not inconceivable that some land owning Virginia residents were familiar with English rifles. The East Anglians and Londoners that constituted the puritans were not familiar with rifles but smoothbore fowlers used to hunt birds and waterfowl in the tideland wetlands available to them and uncontrolled by wealthy landowners. The Quakers from England's midlands had no strong hunting culture and the "Border People" from the borders of Scotland, Ireland, and England were used to taking whatever they could from the land or water without concern for anything but individual rights and privileges. The puritans in New England believed that their society was free but individuals within that society were responsible for maintaining that freedom as a society but not necessarily as individuals. In other words, freedom and rights of a society but accountability and responsibility by the individuals in that society. In the middle of all this came other immigrants, particularly the Germans and Huguenots. They were welcomed into Pennsylvania, Delaware, and NJ. The tidewater Virginians sent them out to the frontiers because they were late comers to the settled tidewater areas and big plantations. The frontier people probably accepted them because they came with needed skills and the New Englanders simply never encountered many of them. Rifle culture leading to the American Longrifle evolved among these immigrants with the greatest critical mass of development likely occurring in PA. That does not mean Virginia was not important in that development but the historical critical mass of documents, evidence, and human population history favors PA. We can argue forever about where "long rifles" were developed including Europe, but the gun we recognize as the long rifle has no parallel in Europe. Certainly there were long barreled rifles but not the slim elegant rifles we call American longrifles. I have never seen a confirmed European rifle that I would confuse with a Pennsylvania longrifle from the second half of the 18th century.
dave
Gus provides some very useful information. First, I would urge folks to read David Hackett Fisher's Pulitzer prize winning book, "Albion's Seed". It is a long read but it lays out the cultural divisions related to the 4 waves of immigration into colonial British America from England. Those 4 waves were the "Displaced Cavaliers" into tidewater Virginia, the Puritans into New England, the Quakers into southern Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware, and the "Border people" (sometimes called Scotch-Irish) into the frontiers. The divisions of folkways and political ideas associated with those different waves of immigration haunt this country to the present day. In tidewater Virginia, the ruling class was displaced cavaliers from the English Civil War whose ideas of freedom was that an elite society was free and everyone else were peasants. Some of them would have experience with the limited rifle culture in England of rich land owners with populations of fallow and other deer living on their estates. They were the few with the privilege of hunting large mammals with rifles. Therefore, it is not inconceivable that some land owning Virginia residents were familiar with English rifles. The East Anglians and Londoners that constituted the puritans were not familiar with rifles but smoothbore fowlers used to hunt birds and waterfowl in the tideland wetlands available to them and uncontrolled by wealthy landowners. The Quakers from England's midlands had no strong hunting culture and the "Border People" from the borders of Scotland, Ireland, and England were used to taking whatever they could from the land or water without concern for anything but individual rights and privileges. The puritans in New England believed that their society was free but individuals within that society were responsible for maintaining that freedom as a society but not necessarily as individuals. In other words, freedom and rights of a society but accountability and responsibility by the individuals in that society. In the middle of all this came other immigrants, particularly the Germans and Huguenots. They were welcomed into Pennsylvania, Delaware, and NJ. The tidewater Virginians sent them out to the frontiers because they were late comers to the settled tidewater areas and big plantations. The frontier people probably accepted them because they came with needed skills and the New Englanders simply never encountered many of them. Rifle culture leading to the American Longrifle evolved among these immigrants with the greatest critical mass of development likely occurring in PA. That does not mean Virginia was not important in that development but the historical critical mass of documents, evidence, and human population history favors PA. We can argue forever about where "long rifles" were developed including Europe, but the gun we recognize as the long rifle has no parallel in Europe. Certainly there were long barreled rifles but not the slim elegant rifles we call American longrifles. I have never seen a confirmed European rifle that I would confuse with a Pennsylvania longrifle from the second half of the 18th century.
dave
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Something folks may not know about Virginia is what Tidewater and Piedmont means. Tidewater is the far eastern edge of Virginia near to the Ocean. Going west to the flatter coastal plains land beyond that has long been called the Piedmont and that goes to the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains further west. To give you an idea of where the Tidewater ends and the Piedmont begins, Fredericksburg, VA is considered to be on the border between the Tidewater and Piedmont. Fredericksburg is almost exactly halfway between Washington, DC to the North and Richmond, Va to the South. The Rappahannock River runs past Fredericksburg and though it is about 50 miles to the ocean at that point, this river is STILL tidal that far west.
Some may be interested in the following:
“David and William Geddy advertised their trade in Hunter's Virginia Gazette, August 8, 1751.
(plain text of the advertisement)
David and William Geddy Smiths in Williamsburg, near the church, having all manner of utensils requisite, carry on the Gunsmith’s, Cutler’s and Founder’s Trade, at whose Shop may be had the following work, Viz. Gun Work, such as Guns and pistols Stocks, plain or neatly varnished, Locks and Mountings, Barrels blued, bored and rifled;”
Also this is interesting:
“Cutlers Work, as”¦”¦”¦., Sword Blades polished, blued and gilt in the neatest manner”
http://www.history.org/Almanack/life/trades/tradegunfou.cfm?showSite=mobile
This is one of the earliest advertisements in Virginia for rifling barrels (if not the earliest), BUT it was for a service to cut rifling into smooth barrels, rather than making complete rifles. There is no clear evidence complete rifles were made in Tidewater Williamsburg earlier or a bit later than this. IF complete rifles had been made in the Tidewater region around 1750 or earlier, it almost assuredly would have been in Williamsburg or maybe Norfolk, but Norfolk also draws a bust for rifle making that early.
I was HOPING to find a gunsmith in the area of Fredericksburg, VA (on the border between the Tidewater and Piedmont) who was making rifles in the FIW period. My intention was I could see if I liked the work to copy it, but there was no evidence of rifle making there until the AWI. There MAY have been some rifle making going on in Orange County during the FIW period, which is 38 miles west of Fredericksburg, but the evidence is only sketchy at best.
According to the information from many trips to the Gun Shop at Colonial Williamsburg over the years, Virginia Rifle Making began in the James River Basin Area of the Shenandoah Valley. These rifles were made by German or German descended gunsmiths as noted earlier.
However, there is at least some documentation of rifle usage in Fredericksburg during the early part of the AWI and before the Hunter Iron Works/Rappahannock Forge began producing rifles there.
“In the summer of 1776 the Continental Congress requested Virginia to furnish six galleys for the protection of convoys transporting troops across Chesapeake Bay. In response to the request the state decided to build more substantial vessels than those it had so far hired or was building. The Virginia Navy Board authorized four galleys.1” http://www.awiatsea.com/sn/VA/Drag... Markham Singleton Travis Chandler Joel].html
I have found two references for Virginia Militia who were enlisted as Virginia Colony/State Marines for the Galley/Sloop of War Dragon, laid down in Fredericksburg in the autumn of 1776. The Dragon’s builder was Colonel Fielding Lewis, who also had an interest in the Rappahannock Forge. The Marines who were to eventually serve aboard the Dragon, were being recruited at the time the Dragon was laid down. In one case, it was noticed one Virginia State Marine had his rifle stolen and another Marine had just the lock of his rifle stolen. These were indeed Rifles and not smoothbores, BTW. The problem is there was no record of where these Marines had enlisted and brought their personal rifles with them when they enlisted.
Bottom line, though rifle USAGE goes back in Virginia to the FIW and before, the evidence is when they were made at that time, they would have been made in the German manner by those who came from Pennsylvania. So Virginia can not claim to be the origin of the American Long Rifle.
Gus
Some may be interested in the following:
“David and William Geddy advertised their trade in Hunter's Virginia Gazette, August 8, 1751.
(plain text of the advertisement)
David and William Geddy Smiths in Williamsburg, near the church, having all manner of utensils requisite, carry on the Gunsmith’s, Cutler’s and Founder’s Trade, at whose Shop may be had the following work, Viz. Gun Work, such as Guns and pistols Stocks, plain or neatly varnished, Locks and Mountings, Barrels blued, bored and rifled;”
Also this is interesting:
“Cutlers Work, as”¦”¦”¦., Sword Blades polished, blued and gilt in the neatest manner”
http://www.history.org/Almanack/life/trades/tradegunfou.cfm?showSite=mobile
This is one of the earliest advertisements in Virginia for rifling barrels (if not the earliest), BUT it was for a service to cut rifling into smooth barrels, rather than making complete rifles. There is no clear evidence complete rifles were made in Tidewater Williamsburg earlier or a bit later than this. IF complete rifles had been made in the Tidewater region around 1750 or earlier, it almost assuredly would have been in Williamsburg or maybe Norfolk, but Norfolk also draws a bust for rifle making that early.
I was HOPING to find a gunsmith in the area of Fredericksburg, VA (on the border between the Tidewater and Piedmont) who was making rifles in the FIW period. My intention was I could see if I liked the work to copy it, but there was no evidence of rifle making there until the AWI. There MAY have been some rifle making going on in Orange County during the FIW period, which is 38 miles west of Fredericksburg, but the evidence is only sketchy at best.
According to the information from many trips to the Gun Shop at Colonial Williamsburg over the years, Virginia Rifle Making began in the James River Basin Area of the Shenandoah Valley. These rifles were made by German or German descended gunsmiths as noted earlier.
However, there is at least some documentation of rifle usage in Fredericksburg during the early part of the AWI and before the Hunter Iron Works/Rappahannock Forge began producing rifles there.
“In the summer of 1776 the Continental Congress requested Virginia to furnish six galleys for the protection of convoys transporting troops across Chesapeake Bay. In response to the request the state decided to build more substantial vessels than those it had so far hired or was building. The Virginia Navy Board authorized four galleys.1” http://www.awiatsea.com/sn/VA/Drag... Markham Singleton Travis Chandler Joel].html
I have found two references for Virginia Militia who were enlisted as Virginia Colony/State Marines for the Galley/Sloop of War Dragon, laid down in Fredericksburg in the autumn of 1776. The Dragon’s builder was Colonel Fielding Lewis, who also had an interest in the Rappahannock Forge. The Marines who were to eventually serve aboard the Dragon, were being recruited at the time the Dragon was laid down. In one case, it was noticed one Virginia State Marine had his rifle stolen and another Marine had just the lock of his rifle stolen. These were indeed Rifles and not smoothbores, BTW. The problem is there was no record of where these Marines had enlisted and brought their personal rifles with them when they enlisted.
Bottom line, though rifle USAGE goes back in Virginia to the FIW and before, the evidence is when they were made at that time, they would have been made in the German manner by those who came from Pennsylvania. So Virginia can not claim to be the origin of the American Long Rifle.
Gus
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Wow Gus!
That is great information. This is a fun thread, thanks Smo.
dave
That is great information. This is a fun thread, thanks Smo.
dave
Thank you for a very educational post!
There are still more questions than answers.
If only we had a time machine.
Other people that look at us think that we are all weird gun nuts, that are locked in a time tunnel.
Fred
There are still more questions than answers.
If only we had a time machine.
Other people that look at us think that we are all weird gun nuts, that are locked in a time tunnel.
Fred
You know about 1700 folks were wearing weskits that reached the knees or a little lower. By the AWI weskits were high on the thigh. 19th century they were to the trouser tops, and vest was being used as a term more then weskit.
All our little designation of American rifles from European styles before and after, like southern rifles Ohio or Michigan rifles plains rifles ect are our attempts to classify in a way they didn't think of then. There was nothing in Europe that could be confused with a golden age rifle.... But there was no 1820s southern rifle that could be confused with a pre revolutionary rifle. Styles changed but the basics remained. Rifles spread too fast from Vermont to South Carolina for them to have had a single source in Maryland Pennsylvania area.
All our little designation of American rifles from European styles before and after, like southern rifles Ohio or Michigan rifles plains rifles ect are our attempts to classify in a way they didn't think of then. There was nothing in Europe that could be confused with a golden age rifle.... But there was no 1820s southern rifle that could be confused with a pre revolutionary rifle. Styles changed but the basics remained. Rifles spread too fast from Vermont to South Carolina for them to have had a single source in Maryland Pennsylvania area.
Well all you chaps know a lot more on this than I do but I must admit I am a bit confused. I recall reading some of the British Officers in the AWI said they had never seen such fine rifles as those made in America. Now inferring things is dangerous but it would seem to imply such rifles must therefore have been absent in England.
I know Daniel Boone was born in PA and moved to NC. I have always figured he wasn't alone and the PA folks brought their rifles with them and the local gunsmiths simply copied them but with a local variation.
In any event, I guess part of the issue is what exactly is an "American Long rifle" and as others have said, it evolved over time. In any event I always thought the style originated in enough numbers to become an established style in SE PA and many but not all of the builders were of German origin.
I know Daniel Boone was born in PA and moved to NC. I have always figured he wasn't alone and the PA folks brought their rifles with them and the local gunsmiths simply copied them but with a local variation.
In any event, I guess part of the issue is what exactly is an "American Long rifle" and as others have said, it evolved over time. In any event I always thought the style originated in enough numbers to become an established style in SE PA and many but not all of the builders were of German origin.
“David and William Geddy advertised their trade in Hunter's Virginia Gazette, August 8, 1751"
that was before my time.....seems pretty dang well back at the beginning tho~
Moravian's settlement must of been close to that time also in making basic firearms.....
marc n tomtom :hmm:
that was before my time.....seems pretty dang well back at the beginning tho~
Moravian's settlement must of been close to that time also in making basic firearms.....
marc n tomtom :hmm:
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Hi Crockett,
Rifles go back at least to the 17th century in England. Breech loading "deer park" rifles were used as sniper weapons from fortifications during the English Civil War. It just was that in England, only the wealthy owned parcels of land sufficiently large to raise deer for hunting. Middle class and poor people had no access to that form of sport but they could hunt waterfowl and other birds along coastlines and rivers. English rifles in the 18th century were generally English versions of German hunting rifles with short barrels and large bores. Some small bored "rook" rifles were made but most were large. I am not surprised that English officers were impressed by American rifles. Most probably had never seen such long elegant rifles (fowlers yes, rifles no)and as we know, many were made very well and likely were efficient and accurate.
Let me share a little trivia. During the 17th century the turn-off or screw barrel pistol was invented and very popular in England. It was breech loading. You unscrewed the barrel from the breech, placed powder in a recessed chamber and put the ball on top. Screwed the barrel back on, primed and fired. The ball was the same diameter as the barrel or slightly larger so it made a good gas seal when fired like a modern bullet. These pistols were very powerful given the charge and accurate. The early ones in England were often rifled. Why not? No need to worry about loading from the muzzle and the oversize bullet would take the rifling and seal the gases like a modern rifle. These rifled pistols were very accurate. During the English Civil War, Prince Rupert demonstrated his marksmanship by twice shooting and hitting a weathervane from about 30-40 yards away using a pair of those pistols. Then by the end of the 17th century, for whatever reason, almost none of these turn-off pistols were made with rifled barrels. Why the change from a perfect application for a rifled barrel? I suspect the English simply did not widely appreciate rifles and perhaps they found the smooth pistols to be easier to clean or accurate enough at the close ranges at which they were used, or simply cheaper to make.
dave
Rifles go back at least to the 17th century in England. Breech loading "deer park" rifles were used as sniper weapons from fortifications during the English Civil War. It just was that in England, only the wealthy owned parcels of land sufficiently large to raise deer for hunting. Middle class and poor people had no access to that form of sport but they could hunt waterfowl and other birds along coastlines and rivers. English rifles in the 18th century were generally English versions of German hunting rifles with short barrels and large bores. Some small bored "rook" rifles were made but most were large. I am not surprised that English officers were impressed by American rifles. Most probably had never seen such long elegant rifles (fowlers yes, rifles no)and as we know, many were made very well and likely were efficient and accurate.
Let me share a little trivia. During the 17th century the turn-off or screw barrel pistol was invented and very popular in England. It was breech loading. You unscrewed the barrel from the breech, placed powder in a recessed chamber and put the ball on top. Screwed the barrel back on, primed and fired. The ball was the same diameter as the barrel or slightly larger so it made a good gas seal when fired like a modern bullet. These pistols were very powerful given the charge and accurate. The early ones in England were often rifled. Why not? No need to worry about loading from the muzzle and the oversize bullet would take the rifling and seal the gases like a modern rifle. These rifled pistols were very accurate. During the English Civil War, Prince Rupert demonstrated his marksmanship by twice shooting and hitting a weathervane from about 30-40 yards away using a pair of those pistols. Then by the end of the 17th century, for whatever reason, almost none of these turn-off pistols were made with rifled barrels. Why the change from a perfect application for a rifled barrel? I suspect the English simply did not widely appreciate rifles and perhaps they found the smooth pistols to be easier to clean or accurate enough at the close ranges at which they were used, or simply cheaper to make.
dave
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crockett said:
You may be thinking of the British Major/Lt.Colonel George Hanger of Tarleton's Legion in the AWI. He was said to have been one of the best Rifle Shots in Britain at the time, when he was not philandering and/or drinking and for which he is even more remembered. :haha:
(FWIW, I don't believe he was as good a rifleman as Ferguson of the Breechloading Ferguson Rifle fame, but that is beside the point for right now.)
However, we have to consider that most of the British Officers, who served here in the AWI, were Gentry of some sort and some of them had some experience shooting British Rifles in Britain. But even most of them only did it for sport/pleasure. Many Americans had FAR more experience with rifles than they did, so of course the Americans were normally much better shots than most British Officers. I personally believe that many of the British Officers attributed the higher level of American Marksmanship to American Rifles, RATHER than the amount of experience many American Riflemen had. (There are still a lot of people today who believe that all one needs to be an excellent shot is an excellent rifle and that is just plain flat wrong. )
British Gunsmiths like Turvey were making rifles of as good of quality and even better quality than many/most Pre AWI American made Rifles ”“ as far as fit, function and decoration. It was just that few British Subjects had anywhere near the experience shooting those rifles, that many American Frontiersmen had.
German Jaeger Rifle toting troops with their shorter rifles often did quite well against American riflemen, but we don't think or study them as much. It was also their experience with their rifles that made them better rifle shots than most of the British.
Gus
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Good point about the earlier screw barrel, rifled pistols, Dave.
Ferguson "sort of" resurrected the idea with his Breech loading Rifle. I have often wondered how far he may have taken the concept had he not been killed at King's Mountain.
The American Rifleman's skill and experience also served well even if they lost or damaged their rifle during the AWI. Many of them were recruited by the Artillery and were known for making really good Artillery shots, from their earlier marksmanship skill with rifles.
Gus
Ferguson "sort of" resurrected the idea with his Breech loading Rifle. I have often wondered how far he may have taken the concept had he not been killed at King's Mountain.
The American Rifleman's skill and experience also served well even if they lost or damaged their rifle during the AWI. Many of them were recruited by the Artillery and were known for making really good Artillery shots, from their earlier marksmanship skill with rifles.
Gus
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Hi Gus,
I think the concept Paddie would have had to adopt was making the entire breech and lock section out of metal, like the screw barrel pistols. That way the stock would not break where it did on the 2 ordinance Fergusons known and many of the others made for the EIC and civilians. Even the Ferguson made for DePeyster is broken through the lock section. There is just too little wood left there.
dave
I think the concept Paddie would have had to adopt was making the entire breech and lock section out of metal, like the screw barrel pistols. That way the stock would not break where it did on the 2 ordinance Fergusons known and many of the others made for the EIC and civilians. Even the Ferguson made for DePeyster is broken through the lock section. There is just too little wood left there.
dave
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Excellent point, Dave.
The Ferguson rifle concept was basically good, but had severe weak points as you mentioned. An all metal breech/receiver would have been amazing on that rifle.
Gus
The Ferguson rifle concept was basically good, but had severe weak points as you mentioned. An all metal breech/receiver would have been amazing on that rifle.
Gus
We should not forget the importance of style. Rifles didn't take off in Canada. During the western fur trade it was commented that Canadians and Creoles reached for a fusil while 'Americans' always reached for a rifle. A HBC official well in to the middle of the 19th century said that a fusil was better then paying extra for a rifle that would serve no better. By 1800 rifles had been known in Europe for over 200 years. Yet there were just a few in Britian or France. Almost unknown in Spain or southern Italy. They were almost compleatly confined to Central Europe.
Ok there was more small game to hunt in Britian or France and certainly in Spain or Italy. However the Russians and Scandinavian countries tended to stick with fusils. Mexico and South America never got rifle fever.
There are few hunting or self defense situations where shooting a round ball rifle under the conditions of 18th early 19th century is a great advantage over a fusil.
It's hard to believe rifles were more then the American version of top hats.
Ok there was more small game to hunt in Britian or France and certainly in Spain or Italy. However the Russians and Scandinavian countries tended to stick with fusils. Mexico and South America never got rifle fever.
There are few hunting or self defense situations where shooting a round ball rifle under the conditions of 18th early 19th century is a great advantage over a fusil.
It's hard to believe rifles were more then the American version of top hats.
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I fully admit this is speculation on my part; but I think the Rifle Culture that prospered so much here Pre AWI was not only due to getting more shots at further ranges for the same amount of powder and lead, but also due to the HUGE number of deer hides that were harvested and sold from the American colonies. The rifle gave a distinct advantage for that and we sometimes forget what a huge money making industry that was.
Mexico, South America and Continental Europe had no such vast deer hide harvesting industry. I know deer hides were harvested from Canada, but I admit I am uncertain of how important that was compared to trapping or trading with the NA's.
Gus
Mexico, South America and Continental Europe had no such vast deer hide harvesting industry. I know deer hides were harvested from Canada, but I admit I am uncertain of how important that was compared to trapping or trading with the NA's.
Gus
Most stuff in history we try to explain in some way. Step A lead to step B so C had to follow as no other choice. The south lost the war because the north had more people and railroads. Or America won the war because the country was so big the English couldn't fight on it ect.
Your point is on track. Dice roll on outcomes.
Your point is on track. Dice roll on outcomes.
nchawkeye
58 Cal.
Pete G said:
That is the earliest known DATED American longrifle, not the earliest...
nchawkeye said:
And what is the earliest? What "date" is it from? There is plenty of primary documentation of American Longrifles in the F&I War era but only one or two extant examples and their provenance is questionable. I'd be real curious to find out what the earliest one was.
Twisted_1in66:thumbsup:
Dan
URL=http://s15.photobucket.com//johnsmo3//Mobile%20Uploads/image.png.html]
[/URL]. I wonder what they would have made out of the ore .........nails???
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