Lorenzoni Pistol

[dave_person]

Hi,
There were several repeater designs invented starting in the 17th century. For example, the Kahltoff family invented a very sophisticated repeating gun that was actually adopted by the Danes for special troops. However, one of the banes of early repeaters and breechloaders was loose black powder. Even after the metallic cartridge was perfected, black powder was still a problem because of corrosion and fouling. In my opinion, the real fascination with the early repeaters and breechloaders was not the technology or its performance. It was the fact that highly skilled craftsmen working with simple (but often refined) tools could produce mechanisms that required such incredible precision to operate. That is the most remarkable thing about all of them.

dave

 

[Carteret Kid]

Even more dangerous were the Turret revolvers. They had a disk shaped cylinders with chambers placed like spokes of a wheel. :shocked2:

 

[yakimaman]

Just saw this video of an incredible piece of work. Enjoy Link

 

[M. De Land]

So if all the turret cylinders are charged than you had a loaded barrel pointing at your face for part of the time. Chain fire would be a "Bitch" with that set up! :rotf:
I have a book around here some where that shows a picture of a "Harmonica Rifle". It has a charging bar with five chambers side by side in a flat bar that indexes forward for the next shot like a revolver only horizontally. Still has the gap problem between the cylinder and the breech face to deal with. Mike D.

 

[rickystl]

Thanks for Posting. Very cool. Never seen one outside of a book. Thanks again. Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[Alden]

There are India-made reproductions of the Lorenzoni flintlock selling at Military Heritage...

...not!

Cool arms.

 

[gary boyco]

I have had something bothering me about the lorenzoni pattern weapons for some time now. If you look at the graphical power point style video on Youtube about the lorenzoni repeater it shows how the cycle works and you can see why there is an issue with blow-by and explosions with age and or fouling but how in the world does this design result in a ball that is pressed up to the powder in a way that is equivalent to tamping? If you don't properly tamp your muzzle loader the breech explodes! Looking at the "lorenzoni pattern" I see loose powder WITH AIR GAPS BESIDE IT behind a ball that is lightly resting against the powder. For the life of me I can not understand why they don't explode 100% of the time.......Any thoughts?

 

[Zonie]

With black powder, compressing it a bit is a good thing but if it is not compressed, it won't blow up the gun if the ball is close to it.

For instance, with the Sharps rifle that uses a separate percussion cap to fire, you lower the breech block, drop the ball into the breech with the muzzle down, insert the cloth or paper powder cartridge and close the breech block with the underlever. This cuts off the rear of the cloth or paper cartridge but it doesn't compress the powder charge and the gun is still safe to shoot.

Put a simpler way, black powder does not need to be compressed to still be safe when it is fired in a gun even if there is a small air gap.

 

[MiddleJohn]

What can you folks tell me about a lorenzoni pistol?
I have been reading jubal sackett and louis talk's about this pistol in the book. I have found this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_hnC6x036Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Video was wondering what else could be learned about this gun. I am always interested in learning about different blackpowder guns.

A matched pair of these pistols sold in September of 2016 at RIA for $28,750.

What workmanship for the time!

 

[WRussell]

A matched pair of these pistols sold in September of 2016 at RIA for $28,750.

What workmanship for the time!

Lorenzonis are not as dangerous as one would think. I can speak with some assurance because I have one ( a 9-shot carbine made in the late 1700s). When I took mine apart I was surprised to see how much wear there was on the rotating breech - and how many forging flaws there are in the body, where the breech is supposed to fit so well. How could this thing fire without blowing up? Well, it had blown up. The door that covers the powder magazine had a replaced latch, and the inside looked burnt. If (when) the magazine is ignited, the door blows open, preventing pressure building up enough to do serious damage. If you're shooting right-handed, there are no body parts directly exposed.
The reason they can stand getting so loose before failing is that the recoil forces the rotating breech back directly onto the opening to the magazine, sealing it off even when the fit of the breech is loose. They also have at least one large hole (shown well in the Forgotten Weapons video) to vent any gasses heading back along the breech - and probably to alert the shooter that it's time for repairs.
I could go on, but maybe that's enough for now.

 

[gary boyco]

With black powder, compressing it a bit is a good thing but if it is not compressed, it won't blow up the gun if the ball is close to it.

For instance, with the Sharps rifle that uses a separate percussion cap to fire, you lower the breech block, drop the ball into the breech with the muzzle down, insert the cloth or paper powder cartridge and close the breech block with the underlever. This cuts off the rear of the cloth or paper cartridge but it doesn't compress the powder charge and the gun is still safe to shoot.

Put a simpler way, black powder does not need to be compressed to still be safe when it is fired in a gun even if there is a small air gap.

That response surprises me. If that is the case, why all of the serious admonitions regarding tamping in instructional videos. They literally tell you that you are risking a breach explosion if you don't tamp well.

 

[Zonie]

It's just my opinion but I think those videos are just passing on misinformation that is given by other sources.
The only times I've heard of where leaving an air gap between the projectile and the powder caused problems happened when the gap was several inches or more.
Usually, it was in a rifle where the shooter forgot to ram the ball down the barrel and left it at or a few inches below the muzzle of the barrel.
When things like this happen and people hear about it they jump to the conclusion that "any" gap will cause a problem.

 

[gary boyco]

I think I see where my confusion comes from. There are some videos that as you say repeat hearsay and supposition as fact and so do state an untamped load can explode. When i look at exactly WHO is reporting this to me it is always an amateur rather than someone I would call a real expert. In addition to this when watching videos and reading articles from genuine experts they still make a big thing about tamping but they either say the exact same thing as you ( if the ball is FAR from the powder the muzzle can explode) OR they are concerned with consistency and accuracy only. If you only study casually this can easily leave you with the impression that both the amateurs and experts are saying the same thing when in reality the experts do not say the weapon is at risk of exploding unless you simply forget to ram the ball at all.

Thank you. Not only have I learned something about the Lorenzoni pattern guns, I have a better understanding of that which I had already "learned" about muzzeloaders in general.

It just goes to show that when you study any subject you are going to pick-up inacurate information and sometimes that information may even seem to be coming from good sources if you don't read with some scepticism.

I like the videos where things are actually tested and proven to the viewer through genuine experiments. I have learned a lot through those kinds of videos. Somebody with the means should make a video demonstrating that a loose load may be inaccurate but that only a big gap creates an explosion hazard. The Idahoan perhaps?

Gary in BC.