low POI

[Britsmoothy]

Well, like most post, after a while they get out of hand. So, I'm just going to tell you about my .69 cal. French 1717 Military Musket. It's made in India, which some folks on here dislike. I paid $350.00 for it several years ago. I shoot a .680 ball with 75gr 2F. It's right on at 50 yards.
Here's the GOEX load data chart and the Pedersoli load data chart. They should give you an idea where you should be safety wise for your powder charge and round ball size.
Semper Fi.

View attachment 197102

Can you please describe your sight picture?

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

Can you please describe your sight picture?

Sure, the musket was shooting high. I ended up shaving the comb to the rounded profile you see in the pic. When I look down the barrel, I see the top of the barrel all the way to the target. This way I can line up the tang, the barrel and the front sight with the target. I get about a 3 to 4-inch group at 50 yards. Good enough to hit water bottles and clay pigeons. The musket weights about 9 pounds, so at 75grs, the recoil isn't much. The balance is nice. most of the weight's from the lock back. Semper Fi.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Sure, the musket was shooting high. I ended up shaving the comb to the rounded profile you see in the pic. When I look down the barrel, I see the top of the barrel all the way to the target. This way I can line up the tang, the barrel and the front sight with the target. I get about a 3 to 4-inch group at 50 yards. Good enough to hit water bottles and clay pigeons. The musket weights about 9 pounds, so at 75grs, the recoil isn't much. The balance is nice. most of the weight's from the lock back. Semper Fi.

Thank you.
Now we just need the op to inform us how he is aiming.

 

[pacanis]

Mike Beliveau(?) has a smoothbore video where he keeps raising the charge to get a higher impact. I know he was over 100gr.
That is where I got the belief that more powder will raise POI in a smoothbore. And maybe others. Plus, it is that way in modern firearms. More powder=more recoil=bullet exiting the barrel at a higher point.

I filed the heck out of my front sight on my Fusil de Chasse and was getting tight groups at 50yds with 90gr powder.
And then I found a thread somewhere... it might have even been here. It was 4-5 years ago.

The thread said that the front sight is there for windage only. That you are supposed to be aiming with the top of the barrel. Which I'll admit takes some getting used to with the front sight right there. It goes against how most of us shoot regular guns and ML rifles.

I have since replaced the front sight on my FdC, but I have yet to shoot it since. I'm guessing it will be like mentioned above, that I'll be seeing the whole barrel.

Just throwing that out there.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I have been playing around with paper cartridges in my Pedersoli 1777 and am struggling to get the point of impact up to a reasonable level. I'm using a .65" ball in a paper cartridge that is dipped in 3 parts bees wax 1 part tallow. I started with a 120gr charge of Goex Fg which shoots to POA at around 20 yards but at 40 yards (the length of my backyard) it was printing 30" low! Next, I tried a 100gr charge which seemed to bring the POI up to about 8" low at 40 yards. I'll try a 90gr charge next but anything under 100gr seems pretty wimpy with these sub-caliber balls. I'm not planning on shooting any living critters with this gun, but I still want my cartridges to be of similar power to originals (no recoil = less fun).

Any suggestions on how to raise the POI without lowering the charge further?

Thank you
-Matt

FOLKS he's using a French musket with a front sight post that is on the last barrel band, not on the barrel.

There are two more barrel bands between him and the sight for a total of three.

And to add to the problem the tang bolt isn't recessed at all into the tang

So Matt, I'd suggest that you get a brass angle bracket at the local hardware store. You may want both a 3/4" and a 1" bracket... depending on how much elevation that you will need. Then you use the tang bolt to secure it by removing the bolt, pass the bolt through the bracket, then replace the bolt and the head of the bolt will hold down the bracket and give you metal to use either as a ghost ring or a rear sight.

LD

 

[david w]

Go back to the original post. No mention of group size so maybe good. No mention of sight picture by the shooter but some how you have directed him to all sorts of issues no sorry, at this stage, non issues!
Then you mention free floating a barrel. Is their any military musket muzzloaders free floated? In fact all full stocked muskets are better served with a perfect wood to metal fit period.
Other than just desiring hearing your own voice why would you at this stage lead the gent with the questions down a potentially misleading path? Does not make any sense!

Actually, I was responding to @Indy durtdiggers post. Bugger off!

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

Go back to the original post. No mention of group size so maybe good. No mention of sight picture by the shooter but some how you have directed him to all sorts of issues no sorry, at this stage, non issues!
Then you mention free floating a barrel. Is their any military musket muzzloaders free floated? In fact all full stocked muskets are better served with a perfect wood to metal fit period.
Other than just desiring hearing your own voice why would you at this stage lead the gent with the questions down a potentially misleading path? Does not make any sense!

Your attack is unwarranted. @david w simply asked a question that led to a brief exchange of ideas should the simple stuff not resolve the issue. It was even mentioned in his first post that the problem is most likely user induced. No one recommended or told the OP to butcher his rifle straight off the bat before looking into simpler solutions.

 

[david w]

Your attack is unwarranted. @david w simply asked a question that led to a brief exchange of ideas should the simple stuff not resolve the issue. It was even mentioned in his first post that the problem is most likely user induced. No one recommended or told the OP to butcher his rifle straight off the bat before looking into simpler solutions.

Thank you, Indy!

 

[Britsmoothy]

Actually, I was responding to @Indy durtdiggers post. Bugger off!

Actually I was responding to you sir.
You unfortunately don't have the privilege of telling me to do anything.

Please show me a free floated smoothbores musket.
Anyone, show me please a smooth bored musket that has been free floated.
If anyone takes a smooth bored musket to a gunsmith and asks him to free float it, please video him, I just gotta see his face!

 

[Britsmoothy]

Your attack is unwarranted. @david w simply asked a question that led to a brief exchange of ideas should the simple stuff not resolve the issue. It was even mentioned in his first post that the problem is most likely user induced. No one recommended or told the OP to butcher his rifle straight off the bat before looking into simpler solutions.

Attack!!
What shall it be then, knitting needles at dawn?
Questions, I think I asked questions. I was questioning how his reasonings related here and it looks like so far they don't!
Ok, a hint of sarcasm maybe, but attack . No, not really.

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

Attack!!
What shall it be then, knitting needles at dawn?
Questions, I think I asked questions. I was questioning how his reasonings related here and it looks like so far they don't!
Ok, a hint of sarcasm maybe, but attack . No, not really.

Troll. I'll add you to the short list of folks to ignore on here. Have a good one.

 

[pacanis]

Thanks for the pics, @Loyalist Dave .
Pics always help.
I looked quickly on Pedersoli's site to see what gun the OP was talking about, but did not notice the small site on the barrel band.

As for the tang screw not being flush. That would help raise POI if the front sight was on the barrel, but it's probably a wash with it being on the BB.

Seeing the pics makes me want to need one

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Thanks for the pics, @Loyalist Dave .
Pics always help.
I looked quickly on Pedersoli's site to see what gun the OP was talking about, but did not notice the small site on the barrel band.

As for the tang screw not being flush. That would help raise POI if the front sight was on the barrel, but it's probably a wash with it being on the BB.

Seeing the pics makes me want to need one

I was thinking it would obscure the front sight from where he should put his cheek, so..., may be using some sort of skewed head position and thus the elevation error.

I know a guy who has a ruffed part of his stock where he knows by feel to put a portion of his chin, not his cheek, when he shoots his French AWI musket... to get it to hit at 50 yards when using 80 grains of 2Fg.

LD

 

[pacanis]

I was thinking it would obscure the front sight from where he should put his cheek, so..., may be using some sort of skewed head position and thus the elevation error.

I know a guy who has a ruffed part of his stock where he knows by feel to put a portion of his chin, not his cheek, when he shoots his French AWI musket... to get it to hit at 50 yards when using 80 grains of 2Fg.

LD

I was thinking it would give a reference point to put the front sight on top of. But it may be too far down the tang anyway.

I put some rare earth magnets on the flat of my Fusil. It helped raise POI.
But now that I know how it's supposed to be shot, supposedly, I'd just as soon shoot it that way.
Not much different than my modern shotgun where I see the whole barrel. I automatically hold low on anything moving that I've shot with it. But ball accuracy would be different.

 

[Piquant]

That's a good idea getting a bracket from the hardware store to make a sight. But I think it would look like a big wart on the nose of a pretty girl. Maybe it's the wrong musket for him. I say take it to the range and shoot it a bunch. You 'll learn where to aim it.

 

[Relic shooter]

FWIW on MANY smoothies, especially larger breeched ones you must see barrel or you'd be shooting downhill! I have one that starts out with a breech area 1-1/4" wide and the muzzle is < 0.85". So if I looked down the barrel without seeing any of the flat of the octagonal section or tapered round section ... I'd be shooting many feet to yards under.

I visualize that there is a pencil sitting across the breech and I place the bottom of the front sight at the top of the pencil. If needed, and is GREAT to practice that cheek weld, tape a pencil or suitable dowel thickness piece across the breech to help you maintain that sight picture.

Or, and yes ... I have done many ... bend the barrel ...

Excellent advice Flint62Smootie !
Once an ideal powder, patch & ball load has been developed tweaking/bending the barrel on an octagon to round barrel is key to owning a smoothbore with a small notch at the breech area & front sight that will provide excellent groups & predictable point of impact hits. I've won 50 yd rifle matches with my flint .62 cal. French styled smoothbore.
This being said, tweaking the barrel would best be done by someone with knowledge to do it properly. It took me several hours at a friends property, he had a stack of 8"x 20' long round wood beams that I used to slightly bend & then stress re-leaving the barrel on my 40" smoothbore.
I probably removed & re-installed the barrel 20+ times as I test fired to get the point of impact zeroed-in on the 10-ring at 25 yds. - To those who haven't tweaked a barrel before, stress re-leaving by pulling it back about 20% of the prior movement is a necessary process if you want your point of impact shots to remain stable as the barrel heats up.
I used a marking pen to track each barrel tweak.
Probably will be other forum members who will page in with other ways to accomplish this process.
Relic shooter

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

I was thinking it would obscure the front sight from where he should put his cheek, so..., may be using some sort of skewed head position and thus the elevation error.

I know a guy who has a ruffed part of his stock where he knows by feel to put a portion of his chin, not his cheek, when he shoots his French AWI musket... to get it to hit at 50 yards when using 80 grains of 2Fg.

LD

Perhaps adding a wood spacer to the crown would help? Just throwing this idea out there. Semper Fi.

 

[Billy Boy]

OK trying to understand . Your saying you reduced the powder charge and that raised the POI? That makes no sense. How many shots did you fire with each Load?

With some rifles, ML or modern, lower charges means more barrel time which prints higher on the target at least at moderate ranges.

 

[ronaldrothb49]

With some rifles, ML or modern, lower charges means more barrel time which prints higher on the target at least at moderate ranges.

Started shooting in match shooting and building rifles back in the 70's so I have around 45 years experience. I have never had a rifle shoot higher by reducing the charge. My experience has been the opposite Adding powder raises the POI. The OP doesn't give enough info, how many shots were taken with each charge? What was the group size? Was he shooting offhand or from a bench? Since the OP seems to have disappeared I have to wonder if this was a serious post.

 

[Britsmoothy]

It mostly is evident in pistols if at all and the op has a smooth bore musket with no rear sight. It's not a rifle configuration.