Loyalist arms and the 1768 Charleville musket review

[TFoley]

It's to do with the length of the item beeing shipped .Apparently in the modern world nothing is long anymore.

In THIS country they would fold it.

tac

 

[hawkeye2]

I believe UPS has power equipment to fold stubborn packages. :grin:

 

This is interesting. Matt, I will be interested to hear your take on the bayonet as I have been considering buying one of "their" bayonet's that is less expensive than the Pedersoli one. Great post!

 

[Matt85]

ok time for an update:

i just got an email from loyalistarms answering two questions i asked. first i asked if they had shipped my musket out yet and my other question was what kind of steel were the musket barrels made from.

1. they mailed my musket out yesterday and it should come in two seperate packages. one with the lock and the other with the remaining parts, flints, and bayonet. they claim it will take 5-10 days.

2. here is what they had to say about the type of steel used for the barrels.

Barrels are made of tempered extruded seamless high carbon steel tubing, type BS970.

will provide the next update when the musket shows up.

-matt

 

[Pete G]

I would suspect that two different shipments is a big reason for the cost.

 

[buzz]

things are doen to get around some regulations thats why the two boxs or so i been told and cant wait to hear what you think upon its inspection as i been looking at couple guns from loyalist but have yet to pull the trigger to buy one
the only thing i have about these indian guns i seen in person is the trigger pull is heavy

 

[Matt85]

ok the lock and flints showed up today.

flints: according to loyalistarms these are hand knapped texas chert musket flints. they appear to be decent. one of them is pretty lumpy but it might still work. im too much of a novice to give a decent review on these without trying them.

lock: the lock looks decent and appears to function as it should. it came with a flash shield already installed. the springs on this thing are powerfull! the cock takes some effort to move but i suspect this will be much easier when its attached to the gun. the frizzen spring does concern me a little. it seems too strong, it takes some effort to close the frizzen and when you open it you need to watch your fingers cause it snaps open with some force. in appearance the over all lock looks "ok", the screws seems poorly made and cut to length. actually taking this lock apart could be a real chore cause it appears they installed the screws then poorly cut the extra threaded part flush to the lock plate. this means the end of the screw is deformed. another note is the powder tray seems kinda shallow. overall wont win any beauty contests but is acceptable assuming it works well when mounted on the musket.

testing: so half way threw this post i got curious if this thing would really work... well i tor threw my housing looking for a piece of leather with no luck! but i did find a toilet paper roll (no tp on it), so i cut a piece of that and wrapped a black english flint with it then put it in the lock. as it turns out TP rolls work pretty well, who knew? well i put on some safety glasses, turned out the lights, pulled her to full cock, and let her rip. there was a loud "clack" and a huge shower of sparks, success! the TP roll even held the flint in place properly. so... in tue fashion of any black powder junky i pulled the hammer back and let her go again. another shower of sparks and the TP roll paper still held the flint firm.

she may not be pretty but this lock does work.

-matt

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Matt, that's great but for heaven's sake, get some leather. The pasteboard may work four or five times but it will fail soon and the flint may break or go flying off in an embarrassing direction. If you have an old worn out pair of shoes handy, the tongue is the perfect weight and will do nicely.

 

[tiger13]

You will find that the Indian locks, will spark like a fiend! The springs they use are mighty stiff, and YES the trigger pull takes some getting useds to, and you would do well if you can lighten it up some, but if not, you will get used to it, but that lock will spark for you!

 

[Matt85]

Matt, that's great but for heaven's sake, get some leather. The pasteboard may work four or five times but it will fail soon and the flint may break or go flying off in an embarrassing direction. If you have an old worn out pair of shoes handy, the tongue is the perfect weight and will do nicely.

ill probably have to hit up a hobby shop in the area. looks like i threw away my old pair of boots and cant seem to find anything else that will work. i even tried cutting up an old leather G3 sling but the leather was too thick.

edit: i just cut the thumb off my leather casting gloves (they are free and i can get more). this leather isnt very thick but it will work till i hit a hobby shop.

-matt

 

[Matt85]

You will find that the Indian locks, will spark like a fiend! The springs they use are mighty stiff, and YES the trigger pull takes some getting useds to, and you would do well if you can lighten it up some, but if not, you will get used to it, but that lock will spark for you!

i may try and lighten the frizzen spring up some and the current stiff spring might hurt flint life. i have 18 (6 of each common type) flints to try out with this lock and i will be documenting how many strikes i can get outa each flint.

i dont even have the musket yet and im 4 strikes into this flint... sparks amuse me. hopefully ill have the musket before i wear out this flint. :wink:

-matt

 

[Matt85]

i came home tonight to find two packages sitting in front of my door. i was onley expecting one so this made my night! one package was a handmade hunting knife i bought off this forum (a very fine knife indeed!) and the other of course is the musket!.

ok review time, im gonna break the musket down in parts and give reviews on each and then when im done ill give an overall. for this review i have removed the barrel bands and the barrel from the stock to get a good look at every thing.

Barrel: too be honest, im sorta impressed. the barrel looks much better then i thought it would, its easily the nicest part of the musket. the barrel is marked R.G.M.CO UDAIPUR INDIA A/320 11-4-11. the flash hole is drilled right after the breech plug which seems a little close but the plug is not obscuring the hole at all. the onley kinda fault i can find at the moment is when running a patch down the barrel, the barrel seems to open up a little 8 inches from the breech. the patch goes from slightly tight to easily dropped. i would be interested in pulling the breech plug and measuring the barrel there then comparing it to the muzzle. on the that note, i have have failed a little. i forgot to pick up some calipers to measure barrel diameter. i promise i will get something tommorow night and report this measurement. it does bug me a little that the tang screw doesnt seem to sit flush due to a poor line up of the hole in the stock and trigger.

Barrel bands: these will look "ok" from a distance but up close they arent very good looking. the front band with the brass sight is pretty crude and poorly cut but you would have to look close to notice this. the other two bands are actually decent looking.

Ramrod: this gun comes with the "correct" button style ramrod. the rod that comes with the gun lookes pretty nice and very serviceable.

Stock: i wasnt expecting great things from this gun as it was cheap but the stock is a little disappointing. first, the overall woodworking is poor. if this was your highschool woodshop project you would fail. the stock is too thin (maby 1/32" or less) out at the muzzle and would easily break if it wasnt protected by the first barrel band. the inletting around the barrel is "ok" and will be servicable but not pretty. the inletting around the lock is actually decent. the wood working around the butt plate is very poorly done with very obvious gaps in places. i may get some filler to hide these gaps. the wood work on the butt stock itself is sad and will probably need some sanding. this is at its worst right around the comb where it looks like there might be a small crack. i should also mention the inletting around the trigger gaurd is pretty bad with multiple gaps that could use some filler. overall the stock is very poorly made and is even warped so without the barrel its nothing close to strait.

Bayonet: the bayonet that i had included with the order looks pretty nice considering how much cheaper it is then italian repros. it appears to be well made and fits the gun well. i would happily take this over the $200 pedersoli bayonets.

Overall: will the gun work? probably, but i feel i paid too much for it. the total cost for this gun was around $750 and i would say the actual worth (according to my opinion) is probably around $350-$400. the onley real appeal to this gun is that there really arent better options out there. the pedersoli 1766 is outrageously over priced to the point where its not even an option to me plus it has glaring faults. some work could greatly improve the looks of this gun so its best to treat it as a 90% kit. the fit once its all together is "ok", one of the bolts that holds the lock too the gun will not sit flat so it gives the illusion that its not fully tightened down. the trigger pull is terrible but i was expecting that.

i wanted a musket and i didnt want to spend a ton of money on it. my onley actual gripe so far is that it costed too much for what it is. if it shoots even "ok" then i will be happy.

i will update with muzzle diameter soon. please feel free to ask any questions and i will do my best to answer them.

-matt

 

[MacRob46]

You have discovered what most everyone discovers when they buy an Indian-made muzzle loader. They may look OK but they are usually in need of a lot of modification to become anything close to a decent firearm. The barrel issue alone would make me want to return it to the seller. Wood to metal fit has always been a problem. The biggest problem with these guns are the locks. Most have frizzen springs which are far too stiff and mainsprings which are far too powerful. On the "Murdoch" pistol I have, the half cock knotch is in the wrong place on the tumbler and you cannot close the frizzen completely at half cock. Further, it literally eats flints and does not spark well at any time. Since I have chosen not to shoot the gun that is not a problem for me. There was an article in Guns magazine a couple of years ago comparing a Pedersoli French musket with an Indian-made English Marine musket. It took quite a bit of work to get the English musket to the point where it could be fired and it was reported that the bore fouled heavily due to being very rough. If it were me and I intended to shoot the gun much, especially if with ball, I would send it back and save up for something better.

 

[yakimaman]

Matt, thank you so much for the time you put into this. I've been perusing the Loyalist site and waiting for your review before committing to purchasing my next musket. With what you've found, I believe I will be spending the money elsewhere.

rm

 

[Trot]

Thanks for a factual unbiased review. I'll be watching closely, hopefully all minor problems you can work out.

 

[tiger13]

This is a case, where, the OP wanted a musket that was unavailable at a price that he felt he could afford at another source, IE Italian makers, custom build, etc. The Indian muskets fill a void in this case by making some models that are not offered in other places. In a way, these are built like they were back in the times of the originals by a lot of hands on processes, but with modern tools hand drills and such, and taking into consideration the need for the company to produce the product in the cheapest manner possible to make a profit. I still think the shipping was high, but they did send it in two packages to beat the "finished gun" laws of Canada and to allow it to ship into the United States. Perhaps buying one out of the US, IF that model was available by the sellers that sell the Indian muskets could have lowered the overall cost a few dollars, but the point is, if you are looking for certain models, you are limited to where you can get them. Custom guns are going to cost you a lot of money, aside from a few fit and finish issues, how many original muskets when completed, were exactly the same? It is in your hands now, test it, let us know how it shoots. Then make it yours. Good luck with it, you will enjoy it. Give it a chance to prove itself.

 

[Ike Godsey]

in addition to what was said, one question to matt85: could you please provide a picture of the locks inside?

thank you in advance,

ike

 

[MacRob46]

Pete Plunkett of Middlesex Village Trading in the US offers the Indian guns but does not have this particular model on his site at the moment. I will wager that he will before long. That would save you the two shipments and high cost for any future purchases. Pete stands behind the stuff he sells - not that Loyalist Arms does not - and has stated from time to time that he has gotten muskets with which he was dissatisfied and sent them back to the manufacturer. Also, there are two or three makers in India turning these things out. It may be that they all produce about the same quality guns but it would help if you could do some comparison shopping. Best of luck with the gun and I hope it meets your needs.

 

[Matt85]

in addition to what was said, one question to matt85: could you please provide a picture of the locks inside?

thank you in advance,

ike

i have never gotten photobucket to work for me but if you PM me your email address i will email you a picture.

i want to let you all know that at least at this moment im not unhappy with the purchase (havent shot it yet). as i said i feel i over paid but i got pretty much what i expected. the gun is actually pretty good looking if you take a step back. its just under a close eye that you can see that it has many quality related flaws.

as i said in a previous post the lock on this thing is actually pretty nice. its sturdy and sparks very well. the flint doesnt seem to be getting eaten up either. so far ive used it 16 times and have gotten a good shower of sparks each time. i took the lock to work to show my co-workers what a flintlock looks like and i ended up having to do many demonstrations. im keeping tabs on how many times the flint succesfully creates a shower of sparks so as to get an idea of flint life. the lock geometry seems pretty dang good considering the locks source.

i will also be giving a review on loyalistarms here in a little bit. i want to complete my review of the musket first though.

thanks for reading
-Matt

 

[Matt85]

as promised i went out and bought a set of calipers before work earlier today.

the barrels muzzle measures in at around 0.712. thats much bigger then expected, this things almost a 12 gauge!

my 14g wads and shot cards are not going to work with this gun. im gonna have to buy some for a 12g. i have some .685 balls on hand from a previous project and found that they seem to fit well with oxi-yoke 0.020 patches (can thumb them in with a good effort). so it looks like i already have a starting PRB combo. im gonna also going to have to rethink my cartridge ball choice. i was going to use the standard french .65 ball but i think thats too small. perhaps ill use a .67 or .675 for my cartridges.

-matt