loyalist arms?

[jerry0475]

Does anyone have experience with flintlocks from 'Loyalist Arms'? They have a serie of (i think India-made) flintlocks with venthole drilled + proofing data. So are those India-made flintlocks being tuned?

 

[Dphar]

Proving a barrel made of welded or DOM tubing and/or a steel unsuitable for gun barrels is meaningless.
The proof charge can actually set up a future failure.
An NO they are not equal to, much less superior to, a properly made forge welded iron barrel.
The proponents just like to think they are.

Dan

 

[Billnpatti]

In my humble opnion, those India made guns are best suited as wall hangers. You would NEVER catch me shooting one.

 

[chuckpa]

I have listened to the folks on here bad mouth these guns for I don't know how long. I have 3 India Guns and I have been shooting them for about 4 years. I also have Pedersoli, North Star West and custom made guns which I shoot. No the guns from India are not up to the workmanship of the other guns but you can fix them up yourself. If you want one buy one, I bought mine from MVT and they were very good people to work with. I don't pay attention to the rant from the folks on here about these guns as most have invalidated themselves on many issues as far as I am concerned.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Chuck--anyone who has actually bought three of these things has pretty much done a good job of invalidating their own judgement. By your own admission after paying a not particularly low price, you have then had to fix them up yourself. And the end result is a gun of questionable quality, with poor resale value, incorrect lines that only vaguely, if at all, resemble the gun they are supposed to be. Why on Earth would someone with custom made guns even be looking at these things?

 

[rabjr]

Save your money and buy a decent custom gun.

 

[BEP]

You'll have to be more specific as to which Loyalist flintlock you're interested in, since they also sell some Pedersoli flinters.

 

[JayDee Flohr]

I don't pay attention to the rant from the folks on here about these guns as most have invalidated themselves on many issues as far as I am concerned.

I couldn't have said it better. :thumbsup:
One would think that folks with over 5 decades of M/L experience would of picked up a few people skills along the way and share something positive once in a while.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Mostly we're here to tell the truth to those who ask for information. What that means is we share our experience with, in this case, some rather poor examples of the muzzleloading genre, in the most honest way possible.

Now, I don't know you, and you may be one of those of delicate constitution who requires that everything be sugar coated and surrounded by little white flowers. You may have 50 years or more of muzzleloading experience under your belt or only a few. You may also be a collector of India made guns, though that thought boggles the mind. But the concern is that other shooters and especially those new to muzzleloading do not get ripped off by buying overpriced stuff like these guns or that they do not get hurt by them. We would feel--most of us anyway--that we had been remiss if we hadn't pointed out the negative aspects of these guns. I personally would be happy to point out their good points, but I've never noticed any.

Perhaps you, in your most genteel and delicate fashion, could point out to the O.P. and the rest of us unwashed louts, all the wondrous and exceptional points of these firearms? I know that I am waiting expectantly for your illuminating post. But remember, it must be truthful--no wishful thinking. :nono: Bodily parts may be at stake here, afterall. :bow:

 

[chuckpa]

I will answer you questions.
I have m/l's for competition,hunting and fun.
I do not buy my M/l guns for investments.
I have many firearms that have turned into investments over the years and I buy and sell.
My m/l's I look at as fun guns, toys for big boys.
The India guns are just my fun guns.
I am not a gun snob, I just like to have fun.
The End

 

[colmoultrie]

I have posted detailed pics of the one India-made gun I own, a Scottish pistol, obtained through Middlesex Village Trading Co. Mike Brooks' comment was "That's the nicest India-made gun I've seen." However, it is not nearly as nice as Chuckpa's Baker, his pistol, or his fowler. As to the Baker barrel, Chuck did get a Rayl lined rifled barrel for a bit more - much less than a custom piece, so the snide remarks about safety are moot in that case, unless you want to impugn a reputable gunsmith?

Now I won't say that every India-made gun is good - I have seen one or two that I would send back in an instant if someone sent them to me - but I have seen/handled far more that are serviceable firearms, not the equivalent of a custom piece, but far from junk.

After a litttle rasp/finish work, and a barrel liner in the case of the Baker, since they come as smoothbores, Chuck has guns that would compare favorably to many "production" guns and are better than some examples of "custom" guns I've seen.

If you don't like India-made guns, fine, but labelling them all as junk is :bull: By your own account you would never fire one, so your experience of them seems both limited and biased.

I cannot make any judgement about Loyalist Arms, but I would not hesitate to recommend MVTC. Anyone who would like photos of my India-made pistol can PM me or search "Scottish Pistol."

Now, many nice things are deservedly said on this forum about Dixon's Muzzleloading Shop. Chuck and Greg Dixon know their stuff and have the highest of reputations. They sell India-made pieces that they get through MVTC. I'll take their opinion as to safety over the snide ramblings of those who know everything - and nothing.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Well, between you and Chuck, I've certainly been put in my place! And I suppose the rest of the guys on this thread that disagree with you and Chuck have too. You guys are sure convincing and tough, yessir!!!

I can't imagine why you would think for even a moment that I would impugn a reputable man like Ed Rayl. I have guns with his barrels on them and value them highly. That was an astonishingly strange remark to even think of.

Why is it that everyone who owns one of these guns always talks them up as being so wonderful, and then talks about rasp and finish work and usually a great deal of wood removal--and apparently on occasion, having to reline barrels if you want a rifle, thus driving the price up even more? Doesn't sound like much of a bargain to me. Especially for a new shooter. I suppose if you have spent the money on one of these guns, you must feel a need to justify your purchase, but to say that Chuck has Indian built guns that are better than some "custom" guns you've seen indicates that either you rarely see true custom guns or, as the quotes you used would indicate, what you are saying is that they were not really custom guns at all. I have seen and handled a goodly number of these guns from different distributors and have yet to see one that did not have issues. None was authentic in that it did not come close to resembling the gun it was supposed to copy. Fit and finish were terrible and would have been rejected by any manufacturer with any quality standards or sense of shame at all.

Dixon's is indeed a fine shop and neither I nor anyone on this forum has said otherwise. Many shops have price leaders and perhaps that is why they carry them. I really don't know.

"I'll take their opinion as to safety over the snide ramblings of those who know everything - and nothing." Well now, that's a fairly snide bit of rambling right there son. Almost a personal attack on the people who disagreed with you. Of course, no one here claimed to know everything and I'll bet you a lot more than you can afford to lose that none of us knows nothing.

Oh, well, this is pointless as this topic usually winds up being. Those that try to answer the question as honestly as they can wind up putting those that bought these guns into a frenzied snit and the whole thing goes South in a hurry. I guess the simple answer is that guys like you and Chuck are very happy with your guns and that's as it should be. Some folks are easier to please than others and there's no wrong in that. Enjoy your guns in good health and keep smiling! :v

 

[Halftail]

I have been to Loyalists shop and handled some India made firearms and quite frankly they look and feel like overpriced Junky Wallhangers.Having said that...I have never fired one so they might just be the Cats.....{{{Meow}}}

 

[Dphar]

I have listened to the folks on here bad mouth these guns for I don't know how long. I have 3 India Guns and I have been shooting them for about 4 years. I also have Pedersoli, North Star West and custom made guns which I shoot. No the guns from India are not up to the workmanship of the other guns but you can fix them up yourself. If you want one buy one, I bought mine from MVT and they were very good people to work with. I don't pay attention to the rant from the folks on here about these guns as most have invalidated themselves on many issues as far as I am concerned.

I could care less what they look like. I don't care about the locks needing tuning.
It is impossible to make a safe barrel from tubing, period. It is not possible to make a safe barrel from ANY cold rolled steel.
This is the text of a letter from LaSalle steel as it appeared in "The Buckskin Report" during a discussion of barrel steels from about August 1981 to about May of 1982.

To my knowledge this discussion of barrel steels in this magazine is the only time such a discussion has ever taken place.
Note the "minimum quality requirements" #1.
It is virtually impossible to buy hot rolled high quality steel in small lots. By small lots I mean 30000-50000 pounds. Most small makers must pool orders to get a run made. Making gun barrel or better quality steel requires careful control of the process and testing. As a result of the care taken in making it and the certifications it must pass it is far more expensive than welding/machine shop quality steel.
While GB quality is hard to get. The various cold rolled steels, made with very little in the way of quality controls, are readily available at relatively low cost. Thus people tend to make ML barrels from the stuff. 12L14 especially is extremely easy to cut smooth and produces little wear on the tools compared to harder alloys like 1137 and especially 4140.

Dan

 

[Tsegoweleh]

osayo,
I have delt with Loyalist and have had very good experience.
I have a 28 bess that shoots very well and reliably.
I wouldent say its better or worse than a custom gun. You do get what you pay for. But for the price, it has worked out great for me.
I like it and wouldent hesitate to buy another.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Did you have to do anything to it to make it shoot good? Not being a smart a$$ or anything, just interested to know.I have seen a couple of different places that sell these production pieces and some say that they ship w/o a vent hole, some with. Just curious.

 

[old ugly]

i bought two guns from loyalist arms . they are great to deal with , quick to ship , quick to answer questions , i had good luck with the customer service .

-one gun i bought was a pedersoli brown bess(very good gun)(i don,t have a custom gun to compare it to so as far as h/a)

- second was a fusil (india made) , 1/2 the price of a pedersoli --but--i have not shot it yet . the fit & finish and the physical shape of the gun are on the lower end of the scale . no comparison to the pedersoli .

my opinion and i am no expert on on guns but i know what quality looks like .

i am going to shoot that fusil and see what it will do . i will try to fix some of the wood and try to make it look a bit more slender and may have to do some patina to the thing and may have to do some lock work and may have to fix the trigger pull . i don,t mind doing that stuff BUT the next gun i buy will not be an india made gun .

 

[Catkison]

I have a Loyalist Arms light infantry fusil and it was okay. The quality is nowhere near a custom gun like my Tulle or the Pederosoli Bess I have but it's just for play. The accuracy is quite poor. It took a lot of tweaking just to get a RB on the paper at 25 yards. If you're reenacting and shooting blanks, they're not bad but for hunting or competition, I'd go with my Tulle or my Bess.

The Indian guns do have more variety outside of The Rifle Shoppe or Track of the Wolf at a price that is reasonable for what they are.

 

[cigar_man]

I own and shoot a Loyalist 3rd Pattern Bess.

Yes, the quality is not up to par as a high-end custom.

Yes, it does shoot like a dream, as good as my Miroku Charleville. :thumbsup:

Yes, I do shoot her alot.

No, I have not had to do one D@m thing to make her shoot.

Great customer service, one of the best.

A guy says to me the other day.
That car of yours handles like manure, don't it.

When where you driving one?

Oh, I just heard that from conversation.

:shocked2:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I own and shoot a Loyalist 3rd Pattern Bess.

Yes, the quality is not up to par as a high-end custom.

Yes, it does shoot like a dream, as good as my Miroku Charleville. :thumbsup:

Yes, I do shoot her alot.

No, I have not had to do one D@m thing to make her shoot.

Great customer service, one of the best.

A guy says to me the other day.
That car of yours handles like manure, don't it.

When where you driving one?

Oh, I just heard that from conversation.

:shocked2:

Welcome to the Forum. Looking forward to more posts from you.