Lube In The Hollow Base

[nkbj]

For those that have shot minies, Do you, did you, use lube in the hollow base? If so, what results did you get?
I've tried lube in the hollow and gotten better accuracy with a little but not filled up. With cap locks, when ever the hollow had very much it ended up creating a hang fire or no fire problem for the next round even if the cleaning was intense and two caps fired through before reloading.

 

[Rifleman1776]

The hollow base creates the skirts which expand to fill and grip rifling.
The grease grooves on the outside are for the lube.
Consider this: what are you greasing/lubing when you fill the base?

 

[Tumblernotch]

For those that have shot minies, Do you, did you, use lube in the hollow base? If so, what results did you get?
I've tried lube in the hollow and gotten better accuracy with a little but not filled up. With cap locks, when ever the hollow had very much it ended up creating a hang fire or no fire problem for the next round even if the cleaning was intense and two caps fired through before reloading.

No, never have. The cannelures on the outside are for the lube and it shouldn't be put in the cavity. It was not done originally in the 1850's and 60's. It's what I call the lazy man's method of lubing. A friend of mine does it on occasion and he says that it hasn't caused any problem for him and he fills the base. I don't see how it couldn't reduce the strength of the load myself. It contaminates the powder it contacts and during the explosion mixes with burning powder. The proper way to lube a Minie is to stand it (and as many more that you can provide space for) on a flat plate that is arranged so it can be dipped into a larger pan filled with melted beeswax/tallow in an 80/20 ratio (Crisco can be substituted for the tallow). In very hot weather a 90/10 mix works well and in very cold weather a 70/30 mix is good. You dip the plate into the melted mix to just above the top cannelure and remove and set aside to cool. After cooling, drive the bullet through a sizing die and while being sized, the excess lube is removed from the bullet leaving only what is needed in the grooves. The scrap lube that has set can be returned to the heated pan.

 

[bob308]

with service loads or a little lighter the lube in the base helps the skirt expand also lubes the bore for the next shot and keeps the fouling soft. me and others fill the base about half full with crisco. works great.

how do you lube an enfield bullet that has no groves on the outside?

 

[ohio ramrod]

I always use a dry wad between the lubed mini's and the powder. :idunno:

 

[bob aliano]

I agree. Seems like filling the cavity reduces or at least distorts the skirt expansion. Exposing a blob of lube directly to the burning powder seems also to be a good way to increase fouling.

 

[Bob E]

I have shot and lubed minies for many years and lube only the grease grooves. If you are using a good lube then you shouldnt need to put anything in the base cavity. The English Pritchert (Enfield) round had no grease grooves. The lube was on the paper that held the cartridge together and was used to patch the ball. When the prichert was developed the base had a plug to help expand the skirt of the ball into the rifling. The plug was made of several different materials, either clay, boxwood and even iron. When the US experimented with the minie design they eventually decided that the plug was ineffective.
Now that I have pontificated on the merits of lubing the base, I know many shooters who do lube the base cavity, usually just before loading and firing and get good results.Eventually everyone who participates in this sport will have to find thier own way. What works for you may not work for me. Neither is wrong. The internet or forums are no substitute for experimentation and lots of trigger time. Practice, grasshopper, lots of practice. Cheers, Bob

 

[Pigman]

I have done it both ways and it does not seem to make a difference.

Foster From Flint

 

[ken.clements]

I have shot and lubed minies for many years and lube only the grease grooves. If you are using a good lube then you shouldnt need to put anything in the base cavity. The English Pritchert (Enfield) round had no grease grooves. The lube was on the paper that held the cartridge together and was used to patch the ball. When the prichert was developed the base had a plug to help expand the skirt of the ball into the rifling. The plug was made of several different materials, either clay, boxwood and even iron. When the US experimented with the minie design they eventually decided that the plug was ineffective.
Now that I have pontificated on the merits of lubing the base, I know many shooters who do lube the base cavity, usually just before loading and firing and get good results.Eventually everyone who participates in this sport will have to find thier own way. What works for you may not work for me. Neither is wrong. The internet or forums are no substitute for experimentation and lots of trigger time. Practice, grasshopper, lots of practice. Cheers, Bob

:hatsoff:

 

[curator]

bob308 is on to something. At timed shooting events where a dozen or more shots are required and swabing the bore not possible, lube in the hollow base has kept the powder fouling soft to fascilitate my loading. Of course, there is little time between loading and shooting for the lube to affect the powder charge. Shooting .575 diameter minnie balls in my EuroArms 1861 with a .589 bore requires a base nearly full of lube to get any kind of accuracy. Recovered bullets show increased base expansion over those where no lube was applied. I am using a 50/50 bee's wax/lard lube.

 

[TrueBlueYankee]

I've tried lube in the base and in the grooves (not at the same time) and have found that my Navy Enfield is noticably more accurate when I fill the base with lube rather than the grease grooves. Though I have not recovered any of my minies, better skirt expansion with lube in the base seems like a pretty plausible explanation. I realize greasing the grooves may work better for others, but not in my case.

 

[ken.clements]

bob308 is on to something. At timed shooting events where a dozen or more shots are required and swabing the bore not possible, lube in the hollow base has kept the powder fouling soft to fascilitate my loading. Of course, there is little time between loading and shooting for the lube to affect the powder charge. Shooting .575 diameter minnie balls in my EuroArms 1861 with a .589 bore requires a base nearly full of lube to get any kind of accuracy. Recovered bullets show increased base expansion over those where no lube was applied. I am using a 50/50 bee's wax/lard lube.

I've tried lube in the base and in the grooves (not at the same time) and have found that my Navy Enfield is noticably more accurate when I fill the base with lube rather than the grease grooves. Though I have not recovered any of my minies, better skirt expansion with lube in the base seems like a pretty plausible explanation. I realize greasing the grooves may work better for others, but not in my case.

Hi Curator...If I make a little suggestion :idunno: I would try to have a mould made that fits your Barrel - .001 (after sizing). If you try this, a 4 x 4 at 50 yards, off hand shooting should be destroyed.
I have also had the problems of undersized Minies in a Euroarms Zouave and although I would hit a letter sized target at 50 Meters with all 15 shots”¦ I had a mould made and now most of them (12 from 15 in a timed match) are in the area the size of a cigarette pack. No grease in the base.

Hi Trueblueyankee...It sounds like your Minie's are also to small. It is your Rifle and all, but not using the grease grooves will lead your barrel and makes cleaning a :cursing:
A suggestion: :stir: 57 grains of Swiss number 2, wonder lube, a .58 rcbs flat nosed 600+ Minie sized down to .577 (which will be very tight in Barrel, make sure it goes all the way down).
2 shots in the berm to get the rifle dirty, and then 15 shots, using the same sight picture. you should be shooting roughly 8 inches high at 50 Meters, but again, a 2 -3 inch grouping.

 

[TrueBlueYankee]

I shoot .575 minies out of a .577 bore. Not too terribly undersized, but a sizer is definitey on my want list. Once I go that route, I'll try lubing the grooves again.

 

[ken.clements]

I shoot .575 minies out of a .577 bore. Not too terribly undersized, but a sizer is definitey on my want list. Once I go that route, I'll try lubing the grooves again.

A want list? I got one of those....it just keeps getting longer :grin: and longer......and longer

 

[Bob E]

sure you dont mean a .579 bore? I dont believe a .575 minnie wiil obdurate to fit a .589 bore no matter what lube you are using. Just my humble opinion.

Also, the lube is used to keep the fouling soft, making reloading easier, shot after shot. If you want to prevent bore leading and skirt seperation I would advise you to lube the GREASE GROOVES. Thats what they are there for and smarter folks than us put them there for a reason. Bob E

 

[ken.clements]

sure you dont mean a .579 bore? I dont believe a .575 minnie wiil obdurate to fit a .589 bore no matter what lube you are using. Just my humble opinion.

Also, the lube is used to keep the fouling soft, making reloading easier, shot after shot. If you want to prevent bore leading and skirt seperation I would advise you to lube the GREASE GROOVES. Thats what they are there for and smarter folks than us put them there for a reason. Bob E

There are people out there selling or making Minie's with a Lead/Tin mix. If someone just starting shooting gets ahold of some these for the first time :idunno:
Also please don't forget...the first Minie's were made with a Boxwood / Iron plug in the base. I'll admit, these were because of the very deep hole in the base. Not like nowadays with a flat base.
I've just had a Mould made with a very deep base, like the original. I just want to see if I can get it to work :grin:

 

[nkbj]

Did the hollow based bullets with no grooves come about to solve the problem of skirts breaking off in the barrel or were they just another military hardware invention tried out as years went by?

 

[Bob E]

The Enfield (Pritchert) bullet which has no grease grooves was one of the very earliest hollow based conicals. The lube for this bullet was contained in on the cartridge paper which was supposed to be wrapped aroud the bullet to prevent direct contact with the bore. This was all very cutting edge in the early 1850s when the US started experimenting with the very latest small arms technology.The Burton Ball (what we now commonly call a minnie)was developed as an improvement over the English ball in that the Lube was now applies to the grease groves on the outside of the bullet, speeding and simplifing the loading process. This new ammunition was developed for the 1855 series of small arms and continued to be issued through the Civil War. Sorry for being so long winded, I find this stuff so fascinating I have a hard time quitting! Cheers Bob E

 

[bob308]

news flash for some of you. the groves were not gresse groves. they were scraper groves put there to scrape the fouling out from the shot before. look at an old mini ball close. the minis were also undersized more then what we shoot today. they were not interested in x ring shooting. but more in the number of rounds sent down range.

another litle tidbit most of the bulllets were swedge not cast. casting alone could not have kept up with the amount of bullets expanded.

 

[Bob E]

You are correct about the swaging process. Most conicals were swaged. The grooves were designed for and did hold lubricant. The scraping/cleaning was provided by a "cleaner bullet that had a zinc washer riveted into the base of the bullet. Upon firing the washer expanded into the grooves,cleaning them. Soldiers were issued ammo in paper wrapped packets of 10 rounds with 12 musket caps. One round in each packet was supposed to be a cleaner round. Use or dont use the grease grooves as you will. I had to learn the hard way and I have had to de-breech barrells for teammates who also insisted on learning the hard way (sheared the bases from poorly lubed minnie balls). Cheers! Bob E