Lyman Minie Molds

[nkbj]

Shooting with Lyman minies occasionally over the years there's a few sets of .577-.58 blocks that have been picked up. The traditional old style, the thick skirted pointy nosed one and the short semi-wadcutter looking light weight. Playing around with them found out that the plugs are inter-changeable on the ones I have. Lyman will occasionally change plug diameters on minie molds but these swap out just fine which lets you tinker with designs and weights and skirt thicknesses if it strikes your fancy. Well, it got me to thinking about more tinking.
Everybody knows that solid base bullets work with heavy charges, heavier than the hollow base on a minie will put up with. That's why Lyman created that heavy skirt model was to let shooters up the charges. So, how about a base plug that goes the extra step of making a really shallow cup? Or, a flat base?
Hmm,and what kind of barrel would you use... 48" twist?

 

[Rifleman1776]

That's why Lyman created that heavy skirt model was to let shooters up the charges.

Are you sure that is why Lyman did that?
There are people who believe that by using thick, or flat, based minies in a CW styled musket they can create a real long range dinosauer killer. Dangerous thinking. The CW rifle-musket is a relatively thin walled gun designed for a specific purpose. Tinkering outside those limits can lead to disaster. Methinks the old style minie with standard charges will kill anything on the continent up to, maybe angrey grizzlies. Why mess with success?

 

[TNGhost]

That's why Lyman created that heavy skirt model was to let shooters up the charges.

Are you sure that is why Lyman did that?
There are people who believe that by using thick, or flat, based minies in a CW styled musket they can create a real long range dinosauer killer. Dangerous thinking. The CW rifle-musket is a relatively thin walled gun designed for a specific purpose. Tinkering outside those limits can lead to disaster. Methinks the old style minie with standard charges will kill anything on the continent up to, maybe angrey grizzlies. Why mess with success?

Curious about this, is it the weight, the different base, or fit of the bullet that would cause the danger. I am wondering because I have used a Lee REAL in my repro "Zouave" before. I also shot a few Shiloh flat point minies, I got from a friend, that weighed over 600 grs if I remember correcty. Would either of those be something to steer clear of in the future?

Also, I have read, or heard of the ability to switch the plugs on Lyman moulds and even people turning them down to make thicker skirts to handle a heavier charge. I don't have first hand experience though, as I am on a budget that pretty much limits me to Lee moulds. I have had good luck with them though.

 

[nkbj]

That's why Lyman created that heavy skirt model was to let shooters up the charges.

Are you sure that is why Lyman did that?
There are people who believe that by using thick, or flat, based minies in a CW styled musket they can create a real long range dinosauer killer. Dangerous thinking. The CW rifle-musket is a relatively thin walled gun designed for a specific purpose. Tinkering outside those limits can lead to disaster. Methinks the old style minie with standard charges will kill anything on the continent up to, maybe angrey grizzlies. Why mess with success?

Yep, that's what Lyman said. The BP handbook also includes a photo of the minie in mid-air as it exited the muzzle, fired from a Zouave with 150 grains of FFg to illustrate their success with the thick skirted design.

 

[nkbj]

This is #575213 molded with the #577611 plug.
They're patched up to bore diameter of the .58 TC Hawken.

I'd like to try it with a flat base.

 

[Rifleman1776]

That's why Lyman created that heavy skirt model was to let shooters up the charges.

Are you sure that is why Lyman did that?
There are people who believe that by using thick, or flat, based minies in a CW styled musket they can create a real long range dinosauer killer. Dangerous thinking. The CW rifle-musket is a relatively thin walled gun designed for a specific purpose. Tinkering outside those limits can lead to disaster. Methinks the old style minie with standard charges will kill anything on the continent up to, maybe angrey grizzlies. Why mess with success?

Yep, that's what Lyman said. The BP handbook also includes a photo of the minie in mid-air as it exited the muzzle, fired from a Zouave with 150 grains of FFg to illustrate their success with the thick skirted design.

I'm so glad it ain't blowed up yet I almost wet my pants. :slap:
OK, good for that test. Question: What was gained?

 

[nkbj]

By who?

 

[Rifleman1776]

By who?

The wannabe T-Rex hunters. :blah:

 

[nkbj]

Ooooh, OK. Thought you were asking about the testing. It was done by Lymans.
I'm thinking maybe those same minie molds could be even more accurate with a faster twist barrel and more grooves near to what the British used in the 1850's. While the US military went with slower to prevent spin induced drift the British had some really excellent results whether drift figured into it or not.

 

[ZUG]

This is #575213 molded with the #577611 plug.
They're patched up to bore diameter of the .58 TC Hawken.

I'd like to try it with a flat base.

Nice "Mini's Good Cheer - tell me more about the "paper patching" I'd like to try it - do you lube it - what paper do you use?

 

[nkbj]

I've used different papers for different pieces. Those there are nine pound paper. Most often I just try to avoid sizing, choosing the paper on the basis of getting the diameter to where it needs to be for a stiction fit to the bore, using a double wrap, water or spit to wet the patch before rolling it on. That doesn't always work by any means.
Sometimes I've found that lower paper strength can be advantageous as it can let the paper come off easier. A case in point is a musket with very shallow rifling. The patch wouldn't come off consistently if the nine pound with high rag content was used. Which direction the grain of the paper lays can matter too for similar reasons.

 

[RedFeather]

Regarding musket strength, I picked up a Navy Arms Buffalo Hunter which, as I understand it, is a sporterized Zouave. Val Forgett used some heavy charges and minies in his Buffalo Hunter to take Hippo. My old Black Powder Digest, circa 1972, warns that muskets (and it is reviewing the Italian Zouave) are too thin walled. I guess this might be one of those things that have been repeated so often they are accepted as fact?

 

[Rifleman1776]

Regarding musket strength, I picked up a Navy Arms Buffalo Hunter which, as I understand it, is a sporterized Zouave. Val Forgett used some heavy charges and minies in his Buffalo Hunter to take Hippo. My old Black Powder Digest, circa 1972, warns that muskets (and it is reviewing the Italian Zouave) are too thin walled. I guess this might be one of those things that have been repeated so often they are accepted as fact?

You do the testing. Make sure your widow shares the results.

 

[RedFeather]

I plan to outlive her. That's my plan. I'm sure she has another. "Honey, here's your Zouave, 160 grains 2ffg and a 600 conical. Have fun!". Seriously, I think that was his load in the Buffalo Hunter. But use your own discretion. Personally, I don't intend to get anywhere close to that neighborhood, standard CW loads being more than enough.

 

[M. De Land]

That was a Navy Arms Hawken Hunter not the Buffalo Hunter which is a cut down Zoave rifle. I have the former and used to own the latter.
Forgett used the Buffalo rifle for lion and smaller stuff but for the Hippo and Elephant he used the beefier Hawken Hunter.
They both have 26 inch barrels and are handy to carry in the field and brush. Mike D.

 

[Wes/Tex]

The Buffalo HUnter is the same barrel length as the Zouave "carbine" a gun never actually produced. It can be thought of as a sporting game rifle. Lest some serious loads get accidently loaded. Let me quote from Val Forgett's account of his African hunt using both the Navy Arms Hawken and the Buffalo Hunter as it appears in an old 1974 issue of "Guns & Ammo Complete Guide to Blackpowder". Mr. Forgett is referring to his "Hawken" rifles in .58 and .50 before commenting on the .58 caliber Buffalo Hunter.

"The professional hunters were impressed when they saw our 'ammunition'. The .58 caliber load consisted of a massive, flat-ended Minie bullet weighing 610 grains with 180 grains of FFFg powder. The .50 caliber load contained a 400-grain Minie and 125 grains of the same powder--and both calibers were set up with a powder charge and greased bullet in plastic tubes for easy handling and quick reloading. In addition, I carried along a standard Navy Arms .58 caliber Buffalo Hunter carbine with the 610-grain bullet and a lighter charge of 100 grains of powder."

The 610 Minie he refers to is the Shiloh Minie cast from the "Stakebuster 610" mold no longer available. These charges of Val Forgett were developed by him for his use and though they've been duplicated and used by others, including yours truly, the 100 grain FFFg load with that big Minie will jar your eye-teeth in the light Buffalo Hunter. 75 grains of FFg or FFFg is plenty even with the lighter 505 grain standard Minie and will knock deer and black bear into the nickel bleachers! Unless you expect to confront a grizzly or Kodiak bear, the lighter bullets will do just fine and save you a trip to the dentist! :wink: :thumbsup:

 

[nkbj]

Cannot help but wonder how thick the skirt was.

 

[RedFeather]

Thanks for the clarification. I was going by an earlier thread here on the forum. Good to know. No, indeed, I will NEVER try a 600 grain stake buster and 100 gr! It is, indeed, a trim little gun. And I have a dental plan.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Believe the "Stakebuster" had a thicker skirt than many other Minies but can't recall for sure, been a good few years since I've seen one. The Buffalo Hunter and a standard Minie is the gun that figures in Mike Powosnik's famous suppository shot! :wink: Quickly, Mike made a snap shot at a whitetail as he bounded over a rise and was found about 60 feet beyond, deader'n a hammer...and not a single mark on him! After nearly an hour of searching him over almost hair by hair and closely inspected his antlers for a concussive hit...nada! For some reason, someone decided to look up his rotunda, en voila, bruise all around the anus! The Minie centered the bung hole, traveled up along and below the spine and just short of the front legs it angled down to come to rest in the brisket! Talk about pure dumb, blind luck...but what the heck, nothing succeeds like success! :thumbsup: :haha:

 

[TNGhost]

Why was it called the "stakebuster"?