Lyman Rifle Accuracy

[SDSmlf]

I am getting 16-18” groups with my 54 Deerstalker. Every third shot or more is a flyer. This is with both PRB and TC maxi hunter bullets. I have tried many loads and patch sizes/type with PRB. I have also had both my neighbors shoot it with the same results.

Something is way wrong. I believe that gun has a 1-48 bore with relatively shallow rifling, and with correct patch and roundball should easily group under 6” at 100 yards. Not sure what to suggest as you seem to imply you are not interested in spending much time finding a load. I’d start with the patch material and ball fit, changing things one at a time systematically and taking notes, after confirming the bore (think bore scope) isn’t damaged, but that path will take time and more stuff. Just trying many loads and patch sizes/type with PRB works, but you have to have a little bit of luck. From your description it sounds like it’s the bore or the components you are using.

I am not interested in what the best accuracy is if you spend hours and hours and tons of money finding the perfect load combination and hold your mouth just right. I am interested in what the typical accuracy is from the bench for hunting purposes.

 

[pepebml]

Something is way wrong. I believe that gun has a 1-48 bore with relatively shallow rifling, and with correct patch and roundball should easily group under 6” at 100 yards. Not sure what to suggest as you seem to imply you are not interested in spending much time finding a load. I’d start with the patch material and ball fit, changing things one at a time systematically and taking notes, after confirming the bore (think bore scope) isn’t damaged, but that path will take time and more stuff. Just trying many loads and patch sizes/type with PRB works, but you have to have a little bit of luck. From your description it sounds like it’s the bore or the components you are using.

I think something is wrong too.

For hunting with a muzzle loader, I am not interested in the accuracy when weighing charges or seating the bullet with a scale. I want to know the typical accuracy using simple loading methods. Trying different patches and charges is expected, easy and helps build confidence in the rifle.

My mention of finding the perfect load combination is more related to my experience with centerfire reloading. I find there is the typical accuracy of a rifle, then there is the best accuracy you can obtain. The difference between the two usually is not very much. If a centerfire rifle groups 3” with a common load, I don’t expect it will make a 1” group. If the rifle groups 1 1/2” with a common load, I bet I can find a load combination to get close to 1” or less.

Muzzle loader I suspect might be a little different. So far my experience shows too thin a patch is very detrimental to accuracy. If I use the right patch ball combo and a typical charge weight, I would hope it would group consistent.

I put some time into my rifle. I tried 530 balls with 0.010, 0.015 and 0.018 patches. 0.010 is too loose and made the worse groups. 0.015 is snug and requires swabbing the bore after several shots. 0.018 is very tight. I checked the patch condition down range. I tried FFG in incremental charges from 60-100 grains. 60 grains grouped better but not 6”. Increase in charge, increased groups. I am about 50 balls into testing load combos and a page of notes.

 

[SDSmlf]

I put some time into my rifle. I tried 530 balls with 0.010, 0.015 and 0.018 patches. 0.010 is too loose and made the worse groups. 0.015 is snug and requires swabbing the bore after several shots. 0.018 is very tight. I checked the patch condition down range. I tried FFG in incremental charges from 60-100 grains. 60 grains grouped better but not 6”. Increase in charge, increased groups. I am about 50 balls into testing load combos and a page of notes.

Not being a wise guy, but just out of curiosity….

1. 530 balls with 0.010, 0.015 and 0.018 patches. 0.010 is too loose and made the worse groups. 0.015 is snug and requires swabbing the bore after several shots. 0.018 is very tight. With the .530 ball, what of the above patches gave the best accuracy?
2. I tried FFG in incremental charges from 60-100 grains. 60 grains grouped better but not 6”. Increase in charge, increased groups. Again, which charge gave the best accuracy with the most accurate patch from #1 above?
3. Consider trying a slightly oversized wad between the powder and the patched roundball to protect the patch. If it works, patch is too thin or not a tight enough weave.
4. Did you purchase this gun new? If not, there may be a reason it was for sale. Either way, polish the bore. If I had to guess, starting with knocking the machining burrs off the rifling and bore is a good idea. Here is video from forum member @duelist1954 video showing the process he used on a difficult to load GPR. I have used a similar method with Scotch-Brite for some time, but Mike explains his very well. I started doing it after speaking to Don Getz (Getz Barrel) years ago before he passed, and he recommended using the green (600 grit) Scotch-Brite for smoothing up barrels that were cutting patches. Said it wouldn’t hurt the barrel. There are other methods.

Just a few thoughts on where to start. Centerfire rules don’t apply. And just as an FYI, I own and shoot a number of M1 Garands, and if set up correctly they are 2 minute guns with standard issue ammo.

 

[pepebml]

Good info!

I did not try a lot of 018 because it was a two hand push on the rod with a clean bore.

60 grains was the best on a 015 patch but still 6” flyers from point of aim but most grouped in 3-4”.

I did try an over powder patch besides the ball patch for 015 patches ball. I did not see much of a difference.

Patch weave is a new variable I have not heard. My 010 and 015 patches are not as tight of weave as the 018. You might be on to something there.

I picked this rifle up from a elk hunter used. He said he stopped hunting with a muzzleloader when tags got harder to get. The same reason I stopped years ago. He had it well greased to keep from rusting in the Pacific Northwest rains.

I will check the rifling closer for sharp edges. Should I see cutting on the patches if that is a problem?

 

[ETipp]

I shoot 110 Grs Graff FFFg with a patched ball all the time in my Lyman Plains Rifle .

My feeling is a 2 or 3 inch group at 100 is possible if your eyes are good enough. I usually don't shoot farther than 75

That’s up to you, but the manufacturer (Lyman) has it in writing that it is an overload.

Im shooting 90grains of 3F and I do not see any reason why any more powder is necessary. Holes touching at 75 yards is plenty for this ole boy.

Enjoy.

 

[smokeum54]

If your groups are that big, make sure your sights are tight and not moving.

 

[Rum River]

I put some time into my rifle. I tried 530 balls with 0.010, 0.015 and 0.018 patches. 0.010 is too loose and made the worse groups. 0.015 is snug and requires swabbing the bore after several shots. 0.018 is very tight.

I have two different Lyman 54s, one with the 60 inch twist and one with the 32 inch twist. In both cases .535 projectiles worked better than .530. It sounds like a .535 would never work with an .018 patch in your rifle - but maybe with a .010 or a .015?

I'm not saying this would instantly give you 6" groups - but maybe the results of such a test would help identify the bigger problem?

Hope this helps.

 

[LME]

I have three 54 cal rifles. I’ve never loaded more than 80 grains of either 2F or 3f for targets or hunting. I used to have a Great Plains. Great shooter. Getting in the black on a NMLRA target at 100 is good for anyone. Most who say they get 1” groups consistently at 100 yards are liars. Have I done it? Yes. Does it happen often? Absolutely not. I shoot matches and have for decades. Those tiny groups at 100 are rare for anyone. Worry about 50-75 yard distances for hunting and don’t stress over getting cloverleafs at 100.

Shooting tight groups doesn't come without a lot of work. I have watched sev`eral shooters that couldn't hit the side of a barn even if they were inside the barn. I am amazed at how some people are gifted and others seem to be hopeless when trying to shoot a respectable group. I have never had a M.L rifle that wouldn't shoot a tight group as long as I did my homework. Can you shoot a three inch group at a hundred yards? I know it can be done but I also know old eyes, certain physical conditions and a host of other problem that can't be resolved stops some from achieving this kind of group. I no longer can shoot as well as I use to but do fair at times. If one is doubting this look at what Idaho Lewis can do on a target at long range. He is a master at shooting a M.L. rifle,

 

[Crew Chief]

I have three 54 cal rifles. I’ve never loaded more than 80 grains of either 2F or 3f for targets or hunting. I used to have a Great Plains. Great shooter. Getting in the black on a NMLRA target at 100 is good for anyone. Most who say they get 1” groups consistently at 100 yards are liars. Have I done it? Yes. Does it happen often? Absolutely not. I shoot matches and have for decades. Those tiny groups at 100 are rare for anyone. Worry about 50-75 yard distances for hunting and don’t stress over getting cloverleafs at 100.

Thank you so much for your comment about the rare 1" groups. I hunt with my Hawken style rifles and practice at 50 yds. My Bergmann shoots about 1" high at 50 yds and 4 " low at 100 yds with 85 grains of Shuetzen 2ff. I have a gong at 100 yds and practice shooting high from center and usually hit in the 8" black center. I call that deer MOA. At 73 years old, I don't shot at any animal beyond 100 yds. I am realistic about my abilities.

 

[Billy Boy]

What accuracy can I expect from a percussion 54 Lyman Deerstalker or GPR at 100 yards with PRB using medium to max loads for hunting? Does the twist rate make that much of a difference? Would going to 50 cal make much of a difference?

I am not interested in what the best accuracy is if you spend hours and hours and tons of money finding the perfect load combination and hold your mouth just right. I am interested in what the typical accuracy is from the bench for hunting purposes. For example, in an area I am familiar with, a typical M1 Garand rifle should shoot 3-4” groups at 100 yards with common ammo. Worse than that, there is a problem with the rifle or shooter.

80 yds is as far as I’ll shoot, this is 3 shots rested over the hood of my late truck, semi buckhorn open sites, 90 grs of Triple 7 2F, Hornady round ball, pillow ticking patch, mink oil lube. It represents a reasonable shooting position and my max distance, close enough for a roll in a gut pile. Bench resting, nit picking, and fired by a better shot than me could probably cut this group in half. There are no flies on the Lyman GPRs …

 

[TxGR]

That’s up to you, but the manufacturer (Lyman) has it in writing that it is an overload.

Im shooting 90grains of 3F and I do not see any reason why any more powder is necessary. Holes touching at 75 yards is plenty for this ole boy.

Enjoy.

While that was the last version Lyman put out, I think earlier versions might have been more generous. That's why I prefer the chart @BillinOregon posted, as opposed to the newer one. I strongly suspect most modern barrels can take far more than 120gr 2Fg or 3Fg without any additional wear, tear, or risk.

I am very skeptical of the numbers provided by most manufacturers. Many, like Pedersoli and most custom, semi-custom, and kit makers don't provide any charge data at all. The current Pedersoli manual simply says use the "proper charge" without any further elaboration. Tennessee Muzzleloading lists the same maximum (100gr [no size info]) for .50, .54, .58, and .62 calibers. Traditions lists the .54 caliber maximum as 125gr for 2Fg and 120gr for 3Fg.

Investarms, which made the Lyman GPR and now sells the same model under their own brand (the promo pictures are actually Lyman product photos), lists the maximum load as 100gr for 2Fg and 80gr for 3Fg, well below the Lyman maximums of 120gr 2Fg and 100gr 3Fg.

I have several .54 cal rifles. If I ever used over 120gr, I have no clear recollection of it.

You ask a good question though, "why any more powder is necessary"?

For target shooting or competition, I personally prioritize accuracy and economy. If 80gr is more accurate than 70gr, I'll go with 80gr. For most of my rifles I have two loads, one for hunting, and one for everything else. Hunting is where I think a case can be made for as much energy on target as possible.

In modern defensive handguns, I know, after accuracy, many favor volume of fire (capacity) and/or penetration. Based on what I've read, I favor very high velocity, high energy projectiles. This is all "matter of degree" differences and we can agree to disagree on this. With respect to hunting, I favor prioritizing a humane kill. Sure, one might take a deer with a 70gr load yielding only ~400 ft-lbs at 100 yards, but I don't favor, as an objective, playing around to seek the weakest load.

We're fortunate we're allowed to hunt with muzzleloaders. In Poland, muzzleloaders are not permitted for hunting, and neither is archery as far as I can tell. They have minimum energy requirements: 1000 joules (737 ft-lbs) at 100m for roe deer and 2000 joules (1475 ft-lbs) at 100m for red deer, etc. Only the .54 caliber 160gr over-charge meets the lower standard, roe deer, which are about half the size of white tail deer.

To put this in context, at 100 yards, a Winchester 30-30 (170gr Fed HS SP) is only generating 1109 ft-lbs, well below the higher requirement for red deer, (about half way between a mule deer and elk). A smokeless 44-40 fails to make the grade for either at 448 ft-lbs at 100 yards.

I really don't want such laws to come to the US. I prefer to use the most accurate, most powerful load possible to minimize the risk of a bad incident ending up on Tiktok and giving hunters a bad name.

 

[ETipp]

While that was the last version Lyman put out, I think earlier versions might have been more generous. That's why I prefer the chart @BillinOregon posted, as opposed to the newer one. I strongly suspect most modern barrels can take far more than 120gr 2Fg or 3Fg without any additional wear, tear, or risk.

I am very skeptical of the numbers provided by most manufacturers. Many, like Pedersoli and most custom, semi-custom, and kit makers don't provide any charge data at all. The current Pedersoli manual simply says use the "proper charge" without any further elaboration. Tennessee Muzzleloading lists the same maximum (100gr [no size info]) for .50, .54, .58, and .62 calibers. Traditions lists the .54 caliber maximum as 125gr for 2Fg and 120gr for 3Fg.

Investarms, which made the Lyman GPR and now sells the same model under their own brand (the promo pictures are actually Lyman product photos), lists the maximum load as 100gr for 2Fg and 80gr for 3Fg, well below the Lyman maximums of 120gr 2Fg and 100gr 3Fg.

I have several .54 cal rifles. If I ever used over 120gr, I have no clear recollection of it.

You ask a good question though, "why any more powder is necessary"?

For target shooting or competition, I personally prioritize accuracy and economy. If 80gr is more accurate than 70gr, I'll go with 80gr. For most of my rifles I have two loads, one for hunting, and one for everything else. Hunting is where I think a case can be made for as much energy on target as possible.

In modern defensive handguns, I know, after accuracy, many favor volume of fire (capacity) and/or penetration. Based on what I've read, I favor very high velocity, high energy projectiles. This is all "matter of degree" differences and we can agree to disagree on this. With respect to hunting, I favor prioritizing a humane kill. Sure, one might take a deer with a 70gr load yielding only ~400 ft-lbs at 100 yards, but I don't favor, as an objective, playing around to seek the weakest load.

We're fortunate we're allowed to hunt with muzzleloaders. In Poland, muzzleloaders are not permitted for hunting, and neither is archery as far as I can tell. They have minimum energy requirements: 1000 joules (737 ft-lbs) at 100m for roe deer and 2000 joules (1475 ft-lbs) at 100m for red deer, etc. Only the .54 caliber 160gr over-charge meets the lower standard, roe deer, which are about half the size of white tail deer.

To put this in context, at 100 yards, a Winchester 30-30 (170gr Fed HS SP) is only generating 1109 ft-lbs, well below the higher requirement for red deer, (about half way between a mule deer and elk). A smokeless 44-40 fails to make the grade for either at 448 ft-lbs at 100 yards.

I really don't want such laws to come to the US. I prefer to use the most accurate, most powerful load possible to minimize the risk of a bad incident ending up on Tiktok and giving hunters a bad name.

Understood. You bring up some legitimate and interesting points. I concur with most of it.

As for myself and my .54 GPR, the load I listed provides holes touching at 75 yards. From my only time shooting it from 100 yards, it produced a little larger group but I’m pretty sure most of that was due to my poor vision. I only fired 5 shots and I had already been shooting for several hours.

With 90 grains of 3F, it’s darn sure plenty of power as well for big game. If I saw a need to go higher, I would could do so a little bit as there is a little wiggle room. However, when we look at the chart in the old Lyman book, a round ball gains very little with a few more grains of powder at 100 yards. But it does produce more recoil.

For a hunting load, it would behoove anyone to find the hottest load, that provides the best accuracy with tolerable recoil. I did this for over 30 years reloading many different modern cartridges. This served me well over the years especially on elk and bear.

Regardless, I choose to not exceed the maximum charge listed in the PDF. I would think that besides lawyer bait, Lyman most likely had a good reason for publishing those numbers. Perhaps over time they found that a steady diet of an over charge might loosen things up a bit. IDK for sure but everybody to their own thang.

 

[TxGR]

[snip]
With 90 grains of 3F, it’s darn sure plenty of power as well for big game. If I saw a need to go higher, I would could do so a little bit as there is a little wiggle room. However, when we look at the chart in the old Lyman book, a round ball gains very little with a few more grains of powder at 100 yards. But it does produce more recoil.

For a hunting load, it would behoove anyone to find the hottest load, that provides the best accuracy with tolerable recoil.
[snip]

Agreed. The trick is balancing accuracy, power, and recoil. You're right, the difference in energy at 100 yards between 90gr and 120gr, is only 119 ft-lbs (as opposed to 461 ft-lbs at the muzzle).

The "solution" will likely not be the same for every rifle or every shooter. An extra ~120 ft-lbs with a poorly placed shot is not more humane than a well placed shot with 120 ft-lbs less.

 

[Rebel bull]

the debate of how much powder to use has one final factor that no body has mentioned have you done the "is all the powder burned by the time the projectile leaves the barrel" ? my guess that at 120 grains of powder from a 32" or shorter barrel there will be a good portion of it on a white sheet laid on the ground to shoot over or if when you fire it off in the dark how much flame is exiting the barrel. if the powder is still burning after the ball/bullet leaves the barrel the only thing your doing is increasing recoil and wasting powder

 

[nkbj]

What accuracy can I expect from a percussion 54 Lyman Deerstalker or GPR at 100 yards with PRB using medium to max loads for hunting? Does the twist rate make that much of a difference? Would going to 50 cal make much of a difference?

I am not interested in what the best accuracy is if you spend hours and hours and tons of money finding the perfect load combination and hold your mouth just right. I am interested in what the typical accuracy is from the bench for hunting purposes. For example, in an area I am familiar with, a typical M1 Garand rifle should shoot 3-4” groups at 100 yards with common ammo. Worse than that, there is a problem with the rifle or shooter.

After breaking in the barrel and if you aren't doing any load development, about half a foot to a foot.
About breaking in the barrel, expect to shoot it a while to reduce how much the rifling edges cut the patches. But then again, in present day production I have no idea how the barrels are being rifled so maybe they're good right out of the box. Anybody know about that?

 

[nkbj]

After breaking in the barrel and if you aren't doing any load development, about half a foot to a foot.
About breaking in the barrel, expect to shoot it a while to reduce how much the rifling edges cut the patches. But then again, in present day production I have no idea how the barrels are being rifled so maybe they're good right out of the box. Anybody know about that?

PS,
I'm from the photon torpedo school of round ball rifle shooting.
If it's a hunting load that you're after the best path forward is to select the power level you want and then learn how to make it accurate. In other words, load development.

 

[jambuster]

I have a Lyman GPR in 54 and someone in an earlier post indicated that my load of 110 grs FFFG with a PRB was higher than shown in the manual that came with the gun. My GPR was purchased in 2018 and the manual does indicate a max charge of 100grs which I never checked cause I have the LYMAB BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK . However , when I bought the gun I was using the data in the Lyman Handbook which shows larger charges and that page is posted in this thread somewhere. Any way that manual has been around since the 70's and I am sure if there was a problem with a load given in that book it would be common knowledge by now. Looks to me like the authors of the Handbook tested that stuff pretty good back then and that is the data I trust besides my own personal experience.

Thought I should add this: .530 Hornaday Ball
.015" Patch
Track Mink Oil lube

 

[TxGR]

[snip]
"is all the powder burned by the time the projectile leaves the barrel" ? my guess that at 120 grains of powder from a 32" or shorter barrel there will be a good portion of it on a white sheet laid on the ground to shoot over
[snip]
if the powder is still burning after the ball/bullet leaves the barrel the only thing your doing is increasing recoil and wasting powder

That's another good point to consider.

The tables suggest the percentage burned in the bore is not linear, e.g. everything above 70gr (or whatever charge) is wasted. I am sure you're correct, a higher percentage of the energy created by a 50gr charge goes toward velocity, than the percentage of energy from a 120gr charge.

Charting the velocities against charge weights, there should be points of diminishing returns, let's see what the gains in fps are for each increase in 10gr of charge weight:
Lyman 2nd Edition, 32" bbl 1:60, 3Fg
40 > 50 = 142
50 > 60 = 142
60 > 70 = 39
70 > 80 = 39
80 > 90 = 63
90 > 100 = 63
100 > 110 = 98
110 > 120 = 99

Lyman 1st Edition, 30" bbl 1:66, 3Fg
40 > 50 = 55
50 > 60 = 110
60 > 70 = 110
70 > 80 = 81
80 > 90 = 80
90 > 100 = 93
100 > 110 = 92
110 > 120 = 95
120 > 130 = 94
130 > 140 = 52
140 > 150 = 52
150 > 160 = 48

...and for 2Fg

Lyman 2nd Edition, 32" bbl 1:60, 2Fg
40 > 50 = 113
50 > 60 = 113
60 > 70 = 53
70 > 80 = 52
80 > 90 = 42
90 > 100 = 37
100 > 110 = 143
110 > 120 = 143

How likely is it that there would be 7 repeated numbers among 28 data points?

Maybe Lyman calculated based on something else and just extrapolated from a far smaller number of test shots.

 

[poinlaw]

My 1990’s 54 Deerstalker was only marginal with 530 balls and 010 patches. 015 didn’t seem to help, nor did varying load from 90 to 80 to 100 gr. 2f. Put it away for 20years then tried it with TC Maxiballs. Problem solved. Something in the rifling I guess. My TC Renegades shoot both well, the Lyman only the Maxiballs. Took a spike bull at 40 yards last fall with it and quit worrying about it. Good luck and good hunting.

 

[ETipp]

PS,
I'm from the photon torpedo school of round ball rifle shooting.
If it's a hunting load that you're after the best path forward is to select the power level you want and then learn how to make it accurate. In other words, load development.

I go at it a bit different. I let the rifle tell me what it likes best.