Lyman Trade RifleThoughts

[Buffalo Man]

I ordered a 50 cal flint Lyman Trade Rifle from Midway USA yesterday. I have a Pedersoli Frontier and like it a lot. I was wondering what forum members thought of this model. I have several Lyman percussions, and like them. Did rifle makers use the flintlock action on half stock rifles? I guess at that time you could order what suited you. I’m wondering if a rifle like this was used in the fur trapping era. The price seemed right for the value that one gets. Anyway, I was wondering if members had them and what they thought of the quality, durability, and other thoughts.

 

[erhunter]

I bought mine in 2001 in 50 cal. The wood on the older ones like mine seems to be more appealing to the eye but their stocks are fine. I had trouble with my barrel until last year when I sent it to Bobby Hoyt and rebored it to .54. The 1:48 twist and the sharp edges of the rifling made for poor accuracy on mine. It's now a 54 with a 1:60 twist and is really accurate. I couldn't get mine to shoot conicals either on the original barrel twist.

 

[Sparkitoff]

I will start by saying I don't have one. However, my observation has been that this is the least often used rifle for sale among the Italian Lyman's. I often see GPR, GPH for sale and sometimes a Deerstalker. I personally cannot recall a used Trade Rifle for sale at a realistic price in a long time. My own conclusion has always been that the owners like them enough to hang on to them. There is an option of going to an L&R RPL flintlock if you need one for some reason. Interestingly, I know of GPR's with L&R's but haven't come across anyone that put a L&R on a Trade Rifle. I presume you can work through anything and it doesn't really need one. As far as half-stocks, it seems in the USA a half-stock in flintlock was a rarity. However, my English Sporting Rifle style half-stock flintlock was made based on original rifles and photos and drawings of original rifles. The time span is approximately 1840-1875. Most of these had origins to London or Birmingham. So while the half-stock flintlock may not have been popular in the explorations, on the frontier, among trappers or in the mountains, there were many throughout the world. Please, let us know how you like it upon arrival and as you start using it!

 

[erhunter]

I just ordered an L&R RPL-05-F for my trade rifle. I sent my original lock to Cabin Creek for a tune via FedEX and FedEx lost it in January! I just ordered it yesterday directly from L&R. I know it's not a drop in but now I don't have any lock so I figured I give L&R a try.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

My dad bought a Lyman Trade Rifle, .54 calibre, back in the mid 90’s. He still has it, but his best elk hunting days are now behind him.

The gun is essentially stock, he did add a padded butt-pad to reduce the recoil from his hunting loads. This rifle has taken many elk and several deer. On one trip, I had a malfunction with my gun, and he handed his Trade Rifle to make the shot. I sold my .54 calibre CVA Big Bore Mountain Rifle, shortly after that hunt.

His Trade Rifle has a single trigger, that is silky smooth. He loads it with 100 grains for patched RB, and 90 grains for conical bullet. The gun shoots both very accurately. The conical shot dead on at 100 yards, the RBs are about 3” high. He'll hunt with conicals, and then load with a RB if a follow-up shot is needed.

We're going shooting tomorrow, I'll see if he'll bring it out so I can get an image of it to post.

 

[Livbucks]

I have one. First thing I did was rub the stock down with 0000 steel wool. Then 6 coats of Tru-oil applied with my finger with steel wool between coats. The stocks are pretty dull with just an oil on them. Wouldnt even call it a finish. Then I put an RMC liner in it. The stock liner is a pin hole. I shoot 75 grains with conicals and the gun is weighty and balanced so recoil isnt there at all. Very nice shooter. No problem with ignition but I never shot it with the stock liner. My tang needed a little adjustment on the screw. The barrel had to be forced into the stock to put the pins in. A little turn on the tang screw and it sits right down now. I got a Delrin rod for hunting and a Palmsaver rod for the range. The wooden rod was sealed with Tru oil along with the stock. It is only for display. Steel wooled the goopy oil off beforehand. Check your serial number for recalls. Mine was OK. Just above the cutoff. I like the gun alot. Good luck!

 

[bushytail]

I bought a used LTR 54 cal. about 2 months ago. I didn’t do a lot of experimenting with it. But it seems to like 90 gr of fff goex w/.018 pre lubed patch w/ round ball. I haven’t tried conicals yet. I was told it has a inter-cone shape touch hole liner from factory. I’ll have to see if I can get it out to check. I like shooting it a lot. It’s gonna be my deer/bear gun this year. Historically, I don’t know enough about the flintlock in the fur trade era on this gun. But I have read other flintlock guns being used in the fur trade era. So, I guess it’s possible?

 

[WesB]

I bought a 54 percussion a few years back. I love it. It will slap your cheek if you don't have a good cheek weld. My wife found that out.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I can't speak to the quality of the Lyman Trade Rifle. I've never handled one. I have a Lyman Plains Pistol, and for the money, it is a good value.

As for authenticity, Lyman's trade rifle leaves a lot to be desired. I think (my opinion only) that Lyman took a look at the half-stock Leman Trade Rifle made by Green River Rifle Works back in the seventies, and developed a visually similar rifle modified to so as to be compatible with mass production techniques. They then put a flintlock on it and pretty much invented the half-stock flintlock trade rifle.

In no way am I putting this rifle down, or the people who buy and shoot them. I'm sure it is a good, solid performer, like the Plains Pistol, and superficially it looks very traditional. It should be fine for all practical purposes. It's just that it is not a copy of any sort of original, and under scrutiny, you find subtle non-traditional features.

As far as I know, flintlock trade rifles, meaning those intended for the Indian trade, were universally fullstocks. There were certainly some half-stocked trade and treaty rifles, but as far as I know these were percussion. This is not to say half-stocked flintlocks did not exist. This illustration was drawn by Peter Rindisbacher, a young Swiss fellow and a professional artist, who lived at the Red River Colony in Canada for a short time in the 1820's:

I believe that is a self-portrait, and the firearm is likely a smoothbore, but it is unquestionably a half-stocked flinter.

There were half-stocked flintlock rifles, too. This one is from Texas, made by a German immigrant named Erichson:

That image came from Chris Hirsch's "Texas Gun Trade" website.

This next one may get you even closer to what you're looking for, although it is also a smoothbore. It is now, anyway... We wonder if it might have been bored out at some point. It is an original halfstock made by John Derr:

The Derr rifle was recently up for auction, and is from The Collection of Steve & Marcie Hench. The seller indicates it was "...perhaps made for a local Native American," based on the embellishments. I don't see anything about this rifle that necessarily says "Indian" to me, but who knows? In any event, this looks like a very nice firearm, made by an established gunsmith. It is not a common trade rifle.

So, when you get your Lyman Trade Rifle, I sincerely hope you use it and enjoy it, and I doubt anybody but the most nit-picky of reenactors would give you a hard time. If he does, just point out his chrome-tanned moccasins or Hong-Kong readymade beadwork or farby neck-knife with the coyote jaw handle and be on your way. However, if you take a serious interest in trade guns, and want something closer to the originals, there are some professional builders, as well as some good quality kits, that should get you there.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[BigAl52]

Ive got one in a percussion 54 cal. I changed the front sight because the stock on is to fat for my liking. Other than that Ive just shot it. I have a few custom guns as well. But I still like the trade rifle and if I didnt have a GPR in flint I would buy a trade rifle in flint tomorrow.

 

[lokiprime]

I have one as well .54 Left HAnded FLintlock TRade Rifle. It is awesome.. I love everything about it. Found it at a gun show about 11 years ago for about $240. It was fired once by this guys father and he didn't like it.

 

[Venturehunter]

My niece's husband won a Lyman Trade Rifle at a RMEF banquet. He gone now and she wants to sell it. I don't know if it's been shot or not. What should I ask for it?

 

[Okurok]

My niece's husband won a Lyman Trade Rifle at a RMEF banquet. He gone now and she wants to sell it. I don't know if it's been shot or not. What should I ask for it?

200-500 depending on condition and buyer interest. I personally wouldn't pay over 350 for one that had been a shooter and was in excellent condition. Like new in box my limit would be 400. I'm sure there would someone else who would be willing to pay more.

 

[Venturehunter]

She doesn't have the box. Are you willing to pay $350?

 

[SandWatcher]

I have that same trade rifle. It’s a serviceable gun, shoots well, and I think it’s a good value for the money. There are some quirks to note about it though.

• The rifle definitely has a “mass produced” look to it.
• The lock uses an internal coil spring, which is weird, but does work.
• The rammer tips are threaded on and fall off easily. They need to be glued and pinned.
• The stock vent liner is constricting and prone to cause misfires. Expanding the counterbore and vent, or installing a better liner would be prudent.
• There was a recall on the barrels a few years ago, so be sure to check the serial number to see if you need a new one sent to you.
• I have trouble finding flints short enough to fit in the jaws without touching the frizzen, and often need to modify off-the-shelf flints a little bit to fit.
• It has a chambered breech, so you will also need a small caliber jag/scraper in order to clean it.