M1803 Harpers Ferry and M1800/03 Baker rifles

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Naphtali

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I know very little about M1803 Harpers Ferry [series] .54-caliber rifles or M1800/03 Baker .69/.62-caliber rifles. They date from the same era. Both were specialty military weapons, apparently to be used for similar purposes.

Their appearance, to me, is completely different - that is, the Harpers Ferry is a beautifully proportioned, graceful half-stock design while the Baker is a squat, clubby full-stock design. Unfortunately such descriptions are irrelevant.

Which rifle was the superior weapon? Why?

What are the strong features of each? The weak features?
 
Uhm, The first is/was American made and the second was British,,(?)
The 1803 was one of the first production rifles with specific interchangeable parts,, the Baker was still cottage made.
 
necchi said:
Uhm, The first is/was American made and the second was British,,(?)
The 1803 was one of the first production rifles with specific interchangeable parts,, the Baker was still cottage made.

John,

Please understand I am not trying to be critical, but I do wonder about the specific interchangeable parts on the M 1803? Are you referring to the fact that some parts were forged into dies and thus were similar, though not truly interchangeable?

Gus
 
Gus,
I think he is referring to the 15 L/C short rifles made/modified with interchangeable locks. Personally I think that's another clue that M-1803s were the "Corps of Discovery" rifle.
Taking 15 1792s made by 16 different makers and making them all have interchangeable locks would be a monumental task vs doing that work to a rifle of the same general pattern.
I don't think the 1803 was as interchangeable as a modern battle rifle but it was possible to interchange parts with some fitment by the armorer as they were a standardized pattern.

Naphtali,

Baker...
Heavy, robust large caliber...used tight loads with sewn patches, carried with a mallet to load
The Baker was a lot like a military Jaeger but much more militarized.

M1803...
Light, Graceful like a long rifle or more accurately like a late 18th Century English Sporting Rifle from which it was patterned. It's basically a militarized hunting rifle. It was loaded looser than the Baker as American Rifleman carried no mallet.

Really two different theory's of military rifle design
In their time of use I would say the Baker was more successful but ultimately the M1803's legacy became the modern military rifle.
 
54 Ball,
OK, thanks for the reminder on the 15 L/C lock plates.

Naphtali,
Since they were both military rifles, then I would suggest the only important points of comparison are how good they were in that role and then compare them that way to each other? I don’t pretend that this is a complete list because there are some points on which we don’t have really good information. The most notable example of that is how good were the standard trigger pulls of each rifle compared to the other rifle? Also, I don’t know if there was a side by side comparison of accuracy ever done in the period?

M 1803 Rifle
This rifle was used successfully during the invasion of York and the Battle of Sandy Hook, as well as some other engagements.
Advantages:
1. Double necked Cock that was stronger than the Baker’s Swan neck cock.
2. As 54 Ball already mentioned, easier to load with one standard issue ball size.
3. Wood Half Stock less likely to be damaged than a full stock rifle.

Baker Rifle
Unlike the M1803, which did not see as many variations, it has been suggested that with so many variations of the Baker, it is hard to describe a standard Baker rifle. There were some unsuccessful and/or poorly conceived variations of the Baker rifle; including the "Musket Caliber" one and the "split stock" one. If we leave those aside and concentrate on a sort of generic Baker rifle, then I suggest the following list applies:

Advantages:
1. Sling swivels and sling issued with the rifle. This is not only an advantage to carrying the rifle, but also an advantage for accuracy, as they taught British Riflemen to use it as a “Hasty Sling” to make effective accuracy better.
2. FAR better front and rear sights. The front sight was also Iron/Steel and thus was more robust and less prone to damage. The rear sight had a flip up sight leaf for long range shooting, which again, gave it more effective accuracy.
3. Had a bayonet. Now I admit the Baker’s sword bayonet was not as effective as a socket bayonet, BUT it still had a bayonet and thus better protection for the Riflemen, as well as an offensive shock weapon. It seems we Americans forgot or ignored the painful experiences of not having bayonets on rifles during the AWI, but the British did not.
4. Rifle balls issued with patches sewn around them.
5. Two issued sizes of rifle balls. The larger size balls were no doubt more accurate at longer ranges and the smaller size could be loaded fast both after the bores fouled and when larger bodies of opposing forces got close. Of course having two sizes of balls were more difficult for logistics, but the British Army was better at that than we Americans were.
6. Shorter than the M1803 and thus easier to handle and load from kneeling, sitting or prone positions. (Yes, the British actually considered these things even during the development stages of the rifle.)
7. Full stock actually provided more protection to a Soldier’s hands from burns when the barrels heated up in combat firing.
8. Made in shorter barrel lengths for Cavalry usage.
9. The larger ball size bucked the wind better at combat ranges.
10. Better at effective Combat Accuracy.

Overall, I believe the Baker Rifle was a much better Military Rifle than not only the M 1803, but also the M 1814 or M 1817 ”“ even though the latter two had bayonets. (Of course, even though the latter two had bayonets, it seems they rarely issued the bayonets! You can’t fault the rifles for that, though.)

Gus
 
A bit off topic for your questions, but I thought you might enjoy a little more information on the M 1817.

For quite a few years, I wanted a reproduction of an M 1817 "Common" Rifle. It always seemed to me to be the most esthetically pleasing and advanced of all the Flintlock U.S. Rifles. Too bad none of them were made soon enough for the War of 1812.

There is some additional information on these rifles that came from complaints from some military officers and some arsenal representatives. They complained that the Riflemen kept strongly requesting better sights and stocks made to better fit the individual rifleman. They seemed even more disdainful of the Riflemen requesting double set triggers. From the way these complaints were worded; it seems at least some of the M1817 rifles had some of these "upgrades" done to them, but as far as I know, there are no records of it having been done and no rifles have survived with those modifications.

I specifically asked about these things on a visit to Springfield Armory, NHS back in 1984. When I asked the Curator if they had an original, he said, "You know we never made them here, right?" I said I did know that only Harpers Ferry and civilian contractors made them. Then he told me to wait and went and got a really fine example of an M 1817 for me to look at and satisfy some really in depth questions I had on the rifle. He told me he had also read of the complaints/requests, but to his knowledge, no surviving rifle had the upgrades.

Gus
 
I read all the "Sharps" books. If you haven't read them, Bernard Cornwell wrote the series and it's historically based on actual events, for the most part, with Sharp being a rifleman who has been commissioned because of his bravery.

The Baker I think was a fine weapon for its time. I googled Baker Rifle and found where a rifleman of the 75th shot a French general at ~600 yards, and then shot his aide who went to his help him, proving, I guess, it wasn't a luck shot. Or if it was luck, he had the same luck twice.

The Baker was ugly. But effective. Beauty don't necessarily win wars.
 
Oh my gosh me too. What a treat to read!
The local library even has tapes of the British TV series. The lefties in charge think it's cool because it's oh so British don't you know. Not that they ever watched the shows.
Double treat.
Bwahahahaha!
 
:thumbsup: +1 and as well some later Bakers were converted to take a socket bayonet and the split stock was to prevent moisture and dirt and grit build up in the ramrod hole in the stock from jamming up the rod , for me it is the Baker hands down , it even carried over onto the percussion types .
 
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