M1816 Remington Maynard Conversion - questions

[steved]

I purchased the subject musket from a friend. It's literally an attic find, having been dug out of the rafters of his great aunt's estate. Probably hadn't seen the light of day in years. I've identified it as an M1816 flintlock musket that was converted by Remington in 1856 to the Maynard percussion system. It was refitted with a .69 cal rifled barrel. I'm not well schooled in the M1816 but from what I could dig up there apparently were a few "types" or variations of this musket during the decades it was in service. Can you tell by the stock architecture, barrel bands, trigger guard, etc which variant this musket was before the converstion? Approximate date it was manufactured? The only date I can find is the date on the lock plate (1856)

It's missing the rear sight and some of the Maynard internals but the lock funtions well otherwise. The breech appears as though it was pulled some time long ago and not properly indexed when the barrel was put back on. The screw hole for the rear sight now is not on the top center but canted to the right. There are also some markings on the stock, butt plate and front band that I can't figure out. I'll post those pictures next.

 

[steved]

Here are some pictures of the markings. There appears to be someone's name stamped a few places on the stock and at the barrel/breech junction. From what I can read, the name is C.B.Cundell. Following the name are the letters A.G.T (possibly A.C.T). These letters are also stamped into the heel of the butt plate and on the stock forearm. Any idea of the meaning of "A.G.T"?

There are also some letters and numbers on the front barrel band. "H" over "38" (or 88 or 33 - hard to tell)

Any ideas? Soldier's name? Name of civilian owner?

 

[rickystl]

The 1816 is not in my area of expertise. But you should receive some good responses from others. Just wanted to congatulate you on an excellent attic find. Super!! Rick. :thumbsup:

 

[vtbuck223]

I love the mystery of these pieces...thanks for posting it. I am no expert but I don't believe this was ever a model 1816. More likely a model 1842 or 1855 altered to fulfill a state contract? The comb on the stock may have been shaved down to give it more of the appearance of an 1816. The stamped name would probably be the person who did the alteration? I'm sure someone will have a better answer for you....thanks again for posting.

 

[59sharps]

Best bet go to the N-SSA Board ask the ?? to John Holland. He or others will know they can also send you the spc. sheets on conversions.
Being in Nj you are near several N-SSA members and Shoots. Check the Board for dates and locations. Springtown Pa (july 27-29th) and Middletown Ny (Aug 10 - 12th)would be 2 near you.

 

[varsity07840]

It's a Type II or III 1816. The .69 cal barrel is original to the musket. The lock and breech section were provided by Remington. Frankford Arsenal installed the lock and rebreeched and rifled the barrel. The front barrel band on your musket has the higher front sight associated with
rifled 1816s. About 20,000 were modified from 1856-1859.

Duane

 

[Tumblernotch]

Surprisingly enough, there were not too many variants of this model. Adopted in 1816, they originally had iron pans, but in 1817 a brass pan, copied from the Mle.1777 French musket was adopted though iron pans still in stock were used on many until used up in 1818. In 1821, there still being a large lack of uniformity among the contractors, 30 new model muskets were made up to be distributed to the private armories. There were two changes made in 1821. First, in August it was directed that the barrel and all furniture were to be browned. This did not include the lock, ramrod or screws. Second, in September the new model muskets sent out to the private armories had the lower sling swivel riveted directly to the trigger bow rather than on a separate stud as before. This would date your musket as being made no earlier than 1822. In 1831 the rounded protuberance where the swivel was riveted was added and it appears that your musket has this. If it is the original trigger bow, most likely your musket was made after 1831. This variant was made until September 1840 at Springfield and until September 1844 at Harpers Ferry.
The model muskets mentioned earlier were also marked MODEL along with the year of manufacture (1822) along with USP (United States Pattern). This has caused the M1816 to be wrongly referred to as the M1822. In 1831, it was decided to do away with the browning of the musket and to finish all new muskets as “National Armory Bright”. These muskets are commonly called the M1831.
There were over 325,000 M1816 muskets produced at Springfield and over 350,000 made at Harpers Ferry. There were at least 14 private contractors who made this model and this would add quite a few thousand more. If you need the names and numbers, let me know.
I believe the name C.B. Cundell to be that of a gun broker or dealer. I can’t find that name in any list of inspectors and seeing the initials “AGT” with it leads me to believe that it stands for “Agent”. Also, it appears in several places on the gun. The inspector’s cartouche is generally on the panel opposite of the lock. It should be lightly stamped into the wood and inked. Usually if the stock has been knocked around a bit and roughed up, these stamps either disappear or are very hard to read. I am a bit puzzled as to why “AGT” is stamped by itself on the heel of the buttplate. It also appears that Mr. Cundell stamped the barrel before it was re-breeched by Remington. Makes me wonder if this musket was a contract arm sold on the open market and bought by Remington for conversion. The P, V and Eagle head proofs were obviously removed when the breech was cut off. The H 38 on the band could be a rack number, but usually you see them on the buttplate heel. I’m not sure about it. I see the feed finger and feed finger spring are missing. The missing rear sight would be a long range graduated ramp type sight. A slightly smaller version was used on the early M1855 rifle-musket. If I can find any new info I’ll post it. You have a good find there.
:thumbsup:

 

[Tumblernotch]

I love the mystery of these pieces...thanks for posting it. I am no expert but I don't believe this was ever a model 1816. More likely a model 1842 or 1855 altered to fulfill a state contract? The comb on the stock may have been shaved down to give it more of the appearance of an 1816. The stamped name would probably be the person who did the alteration? I'm sure someone will have a better answer for you....thanks again for posting.

For some reason or other, Remington only converted M1816's.

 

[Jim Blair]

This has caused the M1816 to be wrongly referred to as the M1822. In 1831, it was decided to do away with the browning of the musket and to finish all new muskets as “National Armory Bright”. These muskets are commonly called the M1831.

There is no official basis for the Model 1816 designation despite what has previously been published in most books on these.It is a collectors tag like the "Type" designation.You will not find it in any period ordnance memoranda or manuals.They are refered to as M1822 in all cases as far as I've seen.Reference Ordnance Memoranda No.1 p53,Ordnance Memoranda for Use of Officers of the U.S.Army 1841 p.95,House Misc.Doc.76,1854,p180.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Jersey Flinter, thanks for showing us this excellent find!

Jim, get a copy of U.S. Military Flintlock Muskets,and Their Bayonets, the Early Years, 1790-1815 by Peter A. Schmidt. The M1822 designation is a mistake, the official designation throughout this musket's srvice life was the Model of 1816. The M1822 designation was mistakenly published in the document you mention, "Ordnance Memoranda for Use of Officers of the U.S.Army 1841" and once in writing is impossible to delete from the lexicon. Mr. Schmidt explains how the error came about. He is working from the original Ordnance Department documents in government storage that most researchers have forgotten, feeling that they have been lost for years. The documents contain period copies of all or at least most records from both Springfield and Harpers Ferry as well as contractors and suppliers.

The musket illustrated is, as Duane says, a M1816, probably a Type III converted by Frankford Arsenal using a Remington-made lock with a new breach and bolster. The rear sight used in this conversion, IIRC, was provided by Harpers Ferry.

The stock stampings are probably post military. The "H" over "38" on the front band may be rack numbers representing musket number 38 of Company H of an unknown regiment, whether Regular Service or state militia is impossible to say. The "AGT."? I have no idea.

For more and absolutely accurate, detailed information on the conversion work done on US muskets, including that done using the Remington locks, see American Military Shoulder Arms, Volume 3: Flintlock Alterations and Muzzleloading Percussion Shoulder Arms, 1840-1865 by George D Moller. This is Moller's third volume of his landmark series on Colonial and US military longarms from 1607 - 1865.

 

[steved]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for all of the excellent insight on this musket and the information overall on the M1816 and conversions. From what I've gathered here, it seems to be safe to say that this particular musket was produced sometime between 1831 and 1841, assuming the trigger guard is original to the gun (looks that way). There also seems to be general agreement that the markings on the stock are not military markings but that of a private owner or an agent dealing in military surplus. Looking more closely at the initials, they are puncutated "AGT." - a known abreviation of the word Agent - not "A.G.T." as I wrote in my post. Thanks for that theory, KanawaRanger.

Yes, it was a great find and I was lucky to be in the right place at the right time to get my hands on this musket, since my friend is not into this stuff. At the risk of flaunting my good fortune in front of fellow forum members, I could set up a separate post on the M1842 that I bought along with this one. It's a beauty! I don't really have any questions about the M1842 - the history is pretty easy to find on that model - so I didn't post a request for Firearm Resarch. In any case I can post it "for the good of the order".

 

[Jim Blair]

Jersey Flinter, thanks for showing us this excellent find!

Jim, get a copy of U.S. Military Flintlock Muskets,and Their Bayonets, the Early Years, 1790-1815 by Peter A. Schmidt. The M1822 designation is a mistake, the official designation throughout this musket's srvice life was the Model of 1816. The M1822 designation was mistakenly published in the document you mention, "Ordnance Memoranda for Use of Officers of the U.S.Army 1841" and once in writing is impossible to delete from the lexicon. Mr. Schmidt explains how the error came about. He is working from the original Ordnance Department documents in government storage that most researchers have forgotten, feeling that they have been lost for years. The documents contain period copies of all or at least most records from both Springfield and Harpers Ferry as well as contractors and suppliers.

Have that book.Can he explain why there is no M1816 designation in any of the period ordnance documents but there is M1822?Not just in one or two instances but it appears to be in all.Some of his information comes from Hick's work which in some cases has proven to be Hick's intrepretation of existing records rather than fact based.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

........In any case I can post it "for the good of the order".

You should always share your luck by telling us about it, that's just good karma, right? We'd be interested in seeing and hearing about it.

 

[Jim Blair]

Yes,pictures of your finds. :thumbsup:

 

[steved]

OK, I'll create a post on the M1842. If I find any other interesting markings on the subject musket when I disassemble the barrel from the stock I'll post them here.

 

[Pigman]

I am looking forward to the 1842 post!

Foster From Flint

 

[steved]

Hey Uncle Pig,

I posted the M1842 here and it was moved to the Percussion forum. You can find it there.

 

[Zonie]

Although I didn't move the 1842 post I can see why it was.

The title for this area says:

FIREARMS RESEARCH
"Need help identifying an original muzzleloading firearm? Post a photo here.

The 1842 post was not asking for help or identification. It was simply about the gun and it was turning into a shooting topic.

The Percussion forum is for talking about shooting percussion guns.

 

[Pigman]

I found it.

Real men Shoot 69 cal smooties!

Foster From Flint

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

................ Real men Shoot 69 cal smooties!

Foster From Flint

Ain't it the truth! :wink: