Making a knife out of an old file?

...and on the other hand they can make into fine knives. My current favorite knife I re-handled from an old blade I found in a flea market for $5. It was made from a file by someone who (1) had a great file and (2)knew what he was doing. The old file grooves can still be seen on the back (dull side) of the blade. It is tough and holds a great edge. I'd bet it was 1095 steel. When treated right 1095 makes fine, edge-holding cutting tools. One of my favorite old factory knives is an ancient Marble's Woodcraft made from 1095. This knife has been used hard for probably 80 years or more and still works like new, although the handle is about worn out.

 

[rich pierce]

Here's my favorite original knife made from a file. I bought this at a farm auction in the late 1960's in the Northeast. Have no idea when it was forged (probably 1800's), but it is/was a good knife with a long working life. The handle is what was on it when I bought it but I had to replace the ferrule. I can still see some of the file teeth along the back.

 

[J.D.]

I have been away and lost track of this thread, and am a little surprised at how long this thread has become.

Mike is right about used steel coming back to bite you. That can happen, however, I like the idea of recycling junk steel.

As far as tempering the file at 5oo degrees, that temp may be too low for final tempering. You may have to temper at something approaching 650 degrees to properly temper that knife blade, depending on the unknown carbon content.

I mentioned 500 degrees merely as a starting point.

Also, the tempering range for plain carbon steels is within 25 degrees, or so, so a variation of 10-15 degrees isn't going to make any difference.

Selective heat treating my not be within the possibility of your equipment. A selectively heat treated blade made of something like 5160 will have a straw brown color at the edge, and a blue back. However, the temps required to temper 5160 are much lower than the temp necessary to temper W1, or W2, of which which many files are made. So the higher temps required to temper file steel will produce different oxidizing colors.
J.D.

 

[musketman]

Now how come no one makes a file out of an old knife??? :hmm: :haha:

 

[LRB]

I have been making file blade knives for the last fifteen years. The temper heats I read here are quite high in my experience. I have found that a heat of around 460o gives about 54 to 56 RC. I don't think less hardness than that would be desirable. Also, never quench in water unless oil does not bring the blade to full hardness. If you run a sharp file over the edge and it just skips off with no cut, the steel is as hard as it will get. I temper my blades with three one hour soaks, letting them cool to room temp in between. I also prefer Nicholson files to any other. 1095 heat treats the same as a Nicholson file. If you are running 500o or more in temp, you are getting a soft blade. I have found that 01 requires a temper heat in excess of 500o, but not the simple steels. Regarding the hardening quench, if you can't get a file blade hard by quenching in oil, it probably was not hot enough. The magnet test is valid for getting to critical heat, but you need to bring the blade heat up a tad beyond so that it does not loose too much heat getting from the forge to the quench. 1095 and most files are considered water quench, but with thin edges or small items, water can easily cause them to break or crack. Been there too.

 

[ameling]

*** Now how come no one makes a file out of an old knife??? ***

That's because making a file is VERY HARD to do! I've tried it - once! It wasn't purty! I wanted a hand-cut file for my Viking era blacksmithing tools. I knew how to make it in theory, but the rest takes lots and lots of practice - and a special chisel and holding jig (neither of which I had made).

One of these days I will try it again - when I'm feeling brave (or lose a few more brain cells). From a Historical perspective, it's comforting to know that commercially made files were available well back into the Middle Ages. So I don't have to make them for any of the regular Living History reenacting from the 1600's on up.

yhs
Mike

 

[Birddog6]

The first knife I made was back in the mid-60's and it was with a file. I was 12-13 years old & man I thought I had really done something !! I made several with files but found them not really to my liking. Usually what I found was too big & too thick & took days of grinding won a grinder stone bacjk then. Went from files to high speed hacksaw blades which was really good steel back then and made Superb knives, and now & then to scrap steel from scrap yards, leaf springs off old waggons, trucks, etc.
Finally ended up trying & using all new steel & have never looked back...... I know exactly what I am working with, no guessing of what it is or how to work it, and the end result is 20-60 hrs invested & I KNOW it will hold up for the intended use.

Lots of guys don't want to buy the new steel cause it is expensive & for some reason most ML guys & knife guys are just generally cheap when it comes to buying stuff like that. This is Fact, and you all know this... ha ha ! (I did say most.... :rotf: ) However I would rather invest $10-20 in the steel & know that when I get done it will be right & I have a satisfied customer, rather than wonder if it will hold up & possibly have a disatisfied customer. After 30+ years of making them, I have yet to have one returned with a problem & I plan on keeping the slate clean.........

Just a different way of doing things.... ya got to find your own way........ :thumbsup:

Unless ya are really hung up on using a file, I would buy a piece or 1095 steel from Texas Knife Supply & go from there. Heck buy a of steel 1 1/4"wide x 1/8" thick a 3'long & make several while ya are at it. The more ya make the better ya will get.........

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Evening All,

Mike has made many fine points and reasons for not making a knife out of an old file. The same comments would apply to the springs from the rear axles of automotive vehicles.

I cannot agree more with Mike. In my opinion the unknown metallugy of files and springs do not justify all of the labor involved in hand crafting a knife. I have seen too many failures.

At one time, W. D. Randall would sell pieces of his Knife stock for a reasonable price. This was imported Swedish tool steel with a .01 carbon content. I have made a number of knives from this material. All were properly heat treated and held an excellant edge.

Aother excellant steel is 01 oil hardening precision ground flat stock from Manhatten Supply Company. This stock is available in various widths and thickness in 18 inch lengths.

Both of the above steels are a known quality with a predictable heat treating application. Birddog6 has also given another good source for knife making steel and other supplies.

For those who have limited or no knowledge of heat treatment procedures, this term is an umbrella covering three basic commonly used terms and procedures: annealing, hardening, and tempering. Of course, the subject can get very involved.

Hardening and tempering are terms often used interchangeably. Actually, they are seperate procedures, but both are used to heat treat various alloy steels, including the steels used to make knives.

There is no big secret to hardening and tempering high carbon steel. That information is clearly described in many technical books.

I am of the opinion that anyone that has the urge to make a knife should put his time and labor into working with stock of a known quality.

Best regards,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

[LRB]

What John says is good advise, with the exception of Nicholson files. They can be trusted and make very good knives, even with simple heat treating. I don't know about others, but Nicholson files, according a metalurgists report I read, contain a tad of tungsten, making them a tougher than average steel. In the late eighties I made a knife from a Nicholson for a friend to test on game cleaning. His first report was very disheartening. It went dull before finishing one deer. I concluded that this could be from decarb, and re edged it. Next report was that he was able to do three deer and two hogs before he had to re sharpen. I was as amazed as he was. This was a simple heat treat, forge heated, quenched in motor oil, and torch tempered to a light straw color.

 

[freeonthree]

As for tempering I heat to cherry red and stick it in a bucket of plain old sugar till it cools. stinks like burning carmal. I was told to do this by a old english man that lived down the road from me when I was a teen. It works great. I have used it to harden dies for My press break And they have out lasted dies made in a tool and die shop. Has any one heard of doing it this way?

Freeonthree

 

[blacksmithshoppe]

Freeonthree:
Do you have to draw it back afterwards? I have never heard of this before. Is it sugar water, or just dry granular sugar? I am always willing to try something new,
Jeff

 

[Norskie]

I've heard of the sugar trick using small amounts of dry granular sugar dribbled on the hot iron. Supposed to add carbon to the surface. Never heard of using it like ashes or cinders for slow cooling, but it should work. The old guys didn't have cheap sugar like we do. BTW, if you think that stinks, they used to 'case harden' with leather dust! Phew! :grin:

 

[freeonthree]

I just stick the hole thing in bucket of dry granular sugar Thats all I do.And use it that way.What do you mean by drawing it back.

Freeonthree

 

[Lone Carabiner]

When you 'quench' from red heat, that hardens the metal as hard as it will get, but usually this is too hard for many tools as the metal will be brittle. "Drawing" involves reheating the metal to a low temp and usually soaking for awhile at that temp, depending on the type of steel being treated. Better to have a blade that will need to be resharpened occasionally than one that will chip/break when stressed during use.

 

[LRB]

There is a type of heat treat that only a few steels can benefit fully from, called marquenching. This results in a condition of the steel called bainite, which with the right steel, makes it maximum tough, and yet hard enough for a knife. This is best done with molten salt baths. I may be a little off on the temperatures, but as I recall, the steel is brought above critical heat, then quenched only until it is below 900o, but somewhere above 600o, then allowed to air cool. No further temper, or drawing is done. Done in a perfect manner, certain steels can be flexed 90o, and return to straight, and yet have a Rockwell hardness in the low, to mid fifties, depending on the type of steel.
I am wondering if the sugar is somehow producing something to this effect, since it will quickly melt on contact with the red hot steel. It seems too simple, but stranger things happen.

 

[BlackNet]

brand name files, read nicholas etc.. are made from 1095 steel.

Ed

 

[LRB]

I have heard that, and I have heard W-1. Nicholson will not tell their steel. Latest metalurgical analysis I read on it said a small amount of tungsten. Where did you get your info? In over fifteen years of working with both 1095, and Nicholson files, I have found a slight edge holding advantage with the file steel, when both are given the same heat treat. I have also seen charts rating Nicholson steel at 1.2, to 1.5 carbon, which is not indicative of 1095 steel, which can fall below .90 carbon, but charts can be wrong, and are only as good as who presents them.

 

[BlackNet]

over on[url] knifenetwork.com[/url] there was a recent post on this very subject.

Ed

 

[svk9612]

I've made 25 to 30 knives out of old files, and 99% have been Nicholson. I did see a chart that said files were w-1 steel; probably the same chart we've all seen. Now I haven't forged but 2 knives; the rest were ground and filed. I feel the only real difference between the two is the price. I will say that forging allows you to move the metal around and that facilitates making larger blades out of smaller stock. After I get a knife blade where I want it, I heat it with my torch to red, after preheating my oil. When red heat is achieved, I quench it edge down. If everything is as it should be, I then clean off the scale. Then it goes in the oven at about 425
until a good straw color is achieved, taking care not to let the edge get too dark. Now, I know a lot of you out there have done it a lot longer than I have, and I haven't sold that many knives.
Not to mention, no one has ever heard of me. I haven't yet had any complaints so I feel I'm doing something right. I don't mean to come across hostile in this respect, but on another forum someone with a lot of experience treated me as though I don't know sh*t. Nuff said.
Be Safe,
Steve

 

[LRB]

I would make three suggestions. Take them for what you will. In very dim light, red is a bit low in heat. A nice translucent red orange will give you better hardness. 425o temper is a tad low, but not bad. If the blade is easy to sharpen at this temper heat, it may be telling you that it did not get as hard as it should. You will get a better temper, and a stronger blade if you will temper with three one hour heats, letting them cool between heats. By doing this you allow a slightly greater formation of pearlite, which makes the blade stronger, while losing very little more hardness, if any. One more. If you are not already doing it, you need to normalize your blades, or thouroghly anneal them. This allows a better hardness, reduces warpage, and makes a tighter grain when you quench. Just some suggestions that may help you. I don't mean to criticize, only to help. If you are relieing on a magnet to know when to quench, throw it away and trust your eyes. Steel has to be at least 50o higher than non magnetic in order to harden properly. Red orange in dim light is at, or near 1450o, to 1500o, and right about where it needs to be for a good hardness. Good luck, and take care.