Making a RB mold.

[84bronze]

Question is...what would Wallace Gusler do? :idunno: :haha:

With each gun having it's own unique mold, it would have to be something that could be made in a forge, or home workshop as it were today. Maybe a hickory or oak stick shaved down to the bore size and the rounded off to make the swag size?

"The Modern Gunsmith" by Howe is a great set for modern gunsmithing but still 1940's technology and not 1700's. I've never seen a 1700's gunsmithing manual showing how it was done.

Anyone ever seen how the "old style" round ball molds were made in a shop where the barrel is forged?

 

[omarick1948]

Yes, I've seen it done, but waaay above my skill and equipment level! __Why don't you contact Wallace Gusler? He's alive and well out on the left coast!

 

[Artificer]

I have also not made a mold or a barrel, but I was very interested in how it was done in the 18th century. To fully understand the how and especially the "WHY" of the way they did it, we have to remember modern precision tools and measuring devices did not exist. So they went about it almost sort of backwards from how we do it now.

A customer who wanted a new rifle made, or a rifle barrel "freshed out" enough that it required a new mold, or a larger caliber bored and rifled in his gun would walk in the smith's shop for "bespoke work" or what we might call custom work today. Neither the customer nor the gunsmith talked about "caliber" as no precision instruments were available. There are some accounts where it speaks to having a bore that was about a half inch and some say something like smaller than musket or carbine bore: but that is about as close to a modern caliber as they got.

What they really spoke about was what the "balls per pound" size would be for the barrel. In more modern times we refer to this in shotguns as in 12 Bore or Gauge, 16 Bore or Gauge, 20 Bore or Gauge, etc., etc. NOTE: Even today with modern precision tools and measuring instruments, one will find differences in Bore/Gauge/Balls to the Pound conversion charts to actual bore diameters. So one can imagine in an age before those things that the actual bore size of a gun on the "Balls to Pound" could vary a good deal by modern precision standards.

Today we order a barrel in a caliber of our choice and then measure it with a precision measuring instrument and then order a ball mold that was made with precision tools and instruments so the cast ball will fit the barrel. Throw that thinking out the window for the 18th century.

In the 18th century, basically they STARTED with the ball and built the barrel to it. A customer might order a 28 Balls to the Pound Rifle, he did not know the actual precision bore size and it did not matter. The gunsmith would then either select a ball mold that was imported in that size from Europe or would select the round "cherry" or cutter that would cut that Balls to the Pound Size round hole in the mold. The gunsmith may have also imported the "cherry" cutters OR he may have made one or more himself and that that included hand filing the cutting edges into the round cutter and hardening it so it would cut the Iron mold. He cut the mold as cleanly as he could and then cast a ball around a rod in the mold cavity. That rod was chucked into a hand brace (hand powered drill) and the lead ball was coated with abrasive powder and oil to polish out the mold cavity. Once it was smooth enough to the gunsmith's satisfaction. He cast some balls in the mold and those balls would be used as "gauges" to drill/ream the bore to size.

Then the barrel was made or purchased rough bored undersize to those balls. The barrel was reamed so the balls would just go in the bore with very little space between the balls and the bore size of the barrel. How close could they come to the balls if they wanted? Gary Brumfield who recently passed, but took over the Gun Shop at Colonial Williamsburg (after Mr. Wallace moved up in the CW hierarchy), explained they could ream a bore to within about .003" or maybe slightly less diameter over the size of the balls. Once the barrel was reamed to fit the balls to the gunsmith's satisfaction, the gunsmith cut the rifling in the bore. THAT way, the gunsmith ensured the mold would fit the barrel.

OK, so what happened if the customer lost that ball mold? If he lost the ball mold on the frontier, he was SOL unless someone else had a mold that might cast a ball close enough he could use it. Hopefully he could go back to the gunsmith and have him make a new one from the same round "cherry" cutter that made the first ball mold or make or use a different cherry that would cut a mold that would fit his barrel. The customer might also have had to try a commercially available mold from a trader or store. (I personally think such retailers would have cast a good ball in each mold they stocked and left it in the mold. Then a customer could try the cast ball in his gun to see if it fit his gun.)

Gus

 

[84bronze]

Sort of what I was thinking but not quite as in depth and eloquently, thanks :hatsoff:. I knew all the barrels were slightly different bore size so you would be at the mercy of the gunsmith's capability or what could be afforded. With steel being hard to come by during that time period, I can see how the mold would also be a commodity.

I was thinking a cutter made the same way as a wooden barrel reamer/cutter or with a forged bit. A conical swag form of standard size (as per regional gunsmith shop) would also make sense if they started with bullet first.

I don't think it would have been that hard to do but more of access to raw materials. I think a farmer with a decently equipped forge could have made something if time was available (maybe winter time?). I'm starting to speculate now but believe that where there is a will there is a way both then and now.

 

[Artificer]

I don't think it would have been that hard to do but more of access to raw materials. I think a farmer with a decently equipped forge could have made something if time was available (maybe winter time?). I'm starting to speculate now but believe that where there is a will there is a way both then and now.

Well, the farmer would have had to have had more than a passing knowledge of blacksmithing to have done it.

A true Blacksmith or better still a Blacksmith shop could have done it, though, and especially if they also did gunsmithing as an additional trade. For example, the James Geddy Shop in Colonial Williamsburg never made a whole gun, but advertised rifling barrels and other gun work in 1751 or 1753 and their father had been a gunsmith and taught that trade to his sons along with blacksmithing and foundry work. (Can't remember the exact date they advertised rifling barrels now, unfortunately.)

Gus

 

[Oudoceus]

I would just like to know where I could purchase a ball mold cherry that would cut a .610 hole. At an affordable (for me) price of course. :idunno:

 

[George]

(Can't remember the exact date they advertised rifling barrels now, unfortunately.)

I have 3-4 ads from James Geddy, but the one which advertises rifling barrels was by his sons in 1751. They were a full service corporation:

"THE VIRGINIA GAZETTE
August 8, 1751
DAVID and William Geddy Smith at Williamsburg , near the Church, having all Manner of Utensils requisite, carry on the Gun-smith's, Cutler's, and Founder's Trade, at whose Shop may be had the following Work, viz. Gun Work, such as Guns and Pistols Stocks, plain, or neatly varnished, Locks and Mountings, Barrels blued, bored, and rifled; Founder's Work, and Harness Buckles, Coach Knobs, Hinges, Squares, Nails and Bullions, cures-Brass Fenders and Fire Dogs, House Bells of all Sizes, Dials, calculated to any Latitude; Cutler's Work, as Razors, Lancets, Shears, and Surgeon's Instruments ground cleaned, and glazed, as well as when first made, Sword Blades polished, blued and gilt in the neatest Manner, Scabbards for Swords, Needles and Sights for Surveyors Compasses, Rupture Bands of different Sorts, particularly a Sort which gives admirable Ease in all Kinds of Ruptures; Likewise at the said Shop may be had a Vermifuge, Price, 3s. 6d. per Bottle, which safely and effectually destroys all Kinds of Worms in Horses, the most inveterate Pole-evils and Fibrils [?] cured, and all Diseases incident to Horses; at their said shop."

Spence

 

[Artificer]

I would just like to know where I could purchase a ball mold cherry that would cut a .610 hole. At an affordable (for me) price of course. :idunno:

If you can not find one in the U.S. from the usual suppliers, then Jeff Tanner in the UK can make you one. A lot of folks recommend him.

http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/moulds.html

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Thanks Spence,

That is the original documentation I was referring to.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

A little more for Captain Blood,

The problem for anyone trying to make a replacement mold for a gun and not having the original "cherry" cutter that made the original mold supplied with the gun, was how to measure the bore size and then transfer that to buying or making a cherry to cut the new replacement mold without precision measuring instruments. I speculate it would have been more difficult for a rifle, as it seems there is little to no evidence they used tightly patched balls for smoothbores like we do today, except for Smooth Rifles. So a ball mold for most smoothbores would not have needed to fit the bore as precisely as a rifle bullet mold.

A Farmer probably would not have had a period pair of calipers that measured inside diameters on one end and outside diameters on the other end. Such a set of calipers would more likely have been owned by a (wood) Turner or a more technically inclined Blacksmith Shop. If the Farmer had a good Spring Pole or other wood turning lathe and knew how to use it carefully, he may have been able to turn a piece of wood very close to the rifle bore size and use that as a "gauge" for the size of the replacement ball mold.

However, the Farmer still would have run into the problem of making a round ball cutter in that size and filing cutting teeth into it and properly hardening/annealing the cutter. I personally think that was beyond the blacksmithing abilities of almost any Farmer who did some of his own Blacksmith work, as that was not in his experience or Trade. It may or probably would have beyond the abilities of some Blacksmiths who did not do gunsmithing or mechanical work, as well.

Gus

 

[hawkeye2]

I would expect you could buy a mold from Jeff Tanner for less than you could buy a cherry.

 

[84bronze]

Artificer, If the bullet mold was made before the barrel then the only way would have been to make a new mold and then resize the barrel to match. I think a replacement mold could be made with hand tools if need be although it would be a trial and error process till the correct ball size was formed. It should work for a soft lead ball that was jammed down the barrel with a rod?

Actually from what I've seen the majority of the tools during that time were made out of wood. The only metal parts would be the parts that did the "work"such as blade or measuring point. Inside and outside calipers made out of hard wood with a nail for the tips are actually very precision. I have a couple sets and they work great. Hand made one of them myself. A simple pole lathe was made by tying a rope to the top of a sapling, put 2 large nails in 2 "logs" spaced the width of the rod, and inserted you wood with rope wrapped around it to spin back and forth. Could make very accurate cuts and very easy to make. Also could have used a shaving horse and a wooden spoke shave to make a near perfect round rod. A spoke shave can take off a couple thousands of wood at a time if sharpened correctly.

Take a steel rod and file the end round to match the wooden rod diameter. File a cutter or two into the surface, temper it hard, and use in a brace to make a mold half. make two with handles and you should be able to kill a deer with it. I'm not implying every farmer would be making their own gun but in a rural colonial community I think it was possible.

Some things are common knowledge due to the times you live in. As a kid I knew very well how to fix a flat on my bike. In the 1700's I believe it would have been common knowledge how to fix a wagon wheel. Take a tree, form a hub with chisel, shave some spokes, and form a metal wheel with a fire. How about cutting down some trees and building a barn without any nails that is still standing 200 years later. Different times demand different measures.

I grew up on a small dairy farm in the mountains when there was no walmarts and internet. Parents owned an Antique shop that specialized in primitives so I've always been partial to that period and enjoy seeing what they accomplished.




"Wise men are instructed by reason; Men of less understanding, by experience; The most ignorant, by necessity; The beasts by nature." Marcus Tullius Cicero

 

[Artificer]

Please understand I am in no way taking away from the mechanical abilities of boys and girls raised on a farm in the 18th century or today. I come from a small farm town myself and though not raised on a farm, spent a LOT of time working on farms.

Having said that, I think you are vastly over rating the ability of what an 18th century farmer could do when talking about making a bullet mold. It was and is, at best, an advanced blacksmithing or gunsmithing project.

In the 18th century, round iron or steel rod in a size large enough to make a mold cutting cherry was not common. Most of the time it came in squares or flats. So the "ball" of the cherry was made by upsetting the metal on the end of a normally square rod and formed into a basic round shape. Then it was filed round and cutters were filed ALL OVER the surface of the ball or cherry. (Two, four or even six cutting edges would not have made a smooth and concentric round ball cavity.) That was a fancy piece of hand filing and no easy chore at all. I filed a One inch cube out of a chunk of metal, where all sides were dead flat and the measurements on all sides were off no more than .001". Took me three "chunks" of metal before I got it done. Even with that experience - filing the ball and cutting edges to make a cherry is not something I would look forward to doing.

No matter how much woodworking skill one has, it does not transfer well over to metal. Filing each material is VERY different and learning to hand file metal is much more difficult than filing wood. I know that having come from a woodworking background and then learning metal filing during my 16 month apprenticeship to become a National Armorer. As an Apprenticeship Instructor, I also taught people to hand file metal.

Now, there is a way to test your ideas on how easy or difficult it would be to make a mold cherry and that would be to do it without any modern tools or materials. I encourage you to try it and if you succeed, you will have learned a lot and would have a right to be quite proud of yourself.

Gus

 

[84bronze]

Agreed.

Most everything would have been taken care of the community blacksmith if good enough. The barter system was important for them. Have you ever seen all the different coins there were before the US Mint was created? Same way today not many could take on the job where as the farmer today has his priorities of his resources.

Thanks for the discussion of history. You are a wealth of information.

The initial thought behind the post was to figure out how they made the mold and what procedure would have been used to create the thing so that I could eventually try to make one.