Am thinking of trying my hand at making V springs for flintlocks. Have ordered some stock from Dixie and also have Kit Ravenshear's booklet "Simplified V Springs". If anyone has any good tips or hints I would appreciate hearing them, especially on frizzen springs.Thanks.
making springs
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Worked w/ a toolmaker who made "V" springs, mainly frizzen and main springs, out of solid tool steel blocks, observed steel grain direction and were heat treated in a temp controlled oven. Very disapointing to spend a few hrs making a spring and then having it crack. Heavier springs can be made from sheet stock and again the grain direction should be w/ the spring length and all scratches and nicks have to be eliminated. These are stress points and will cause breakage. However, if a temp controlled oven isn't available for hardening and tempering, broken springs could be the result. Submerging the spring in molten lead is OK w/ some steels but might not be w/ others. For the heavier springs, improper flame hardening and tempering can again result in broken springs. Good luck....Fred
grey8833
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If you have a lead pot for pouring, you can "draw back the temper" in the pot. Get the temp up to melting, wrap the hard spring in foil, push to the bottom of the pot, wait 30 minutes and fish it out. Continue to make ball with the hot lead (what the heck, you got the lead hot anyway).
Oh yea, steel goes non-magnetic at critical, so forget all the color stuff and get a magnet.
Kits book was very good by the way.
Mike F
Mike
Oh yea, steel goes non-magnetic at critical, so forget all the color stuff and get a magnet.
Kits book was very good by the way.
Mike F
Mike
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In modern terminology, critical heat is the target temperature for the steel to be quenched at. This temperature varies with different steels, but is always above non-magnetic which is a constant at 1414°. Quenching at non-magnetic will not get the steel as hard as it really should be, as it does not allow for a good solution of carbon and iron to form for optimum strength and performance. The magnet can be used as a guide to let you know where you are with the heat, and that you need to go a little bit hotter by one or two shades of red higher. Pure table salt melts at 1474°, which with most simple steels, and many others, is a very good critical heat range. With the simple steels, you need to be at least above 1450°.
ohio ramrod
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Mike , your method is exactly what I use with Dixie's spring stock and I have had good results. :hmm:
CrackStock
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Get a garden rake and steal a few tines for stock to make small springs.
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paulvallandigham
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NO. you need an Acetylene torch to do it properly, or a forced air and gas furnace. The propane torch cannot get the steel hot enough.
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It will easily do a frizzen spring. A main spring would require more.
ohio ramrod
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While acetalyne is best, propnae torches will work for small springs if you make a "nest" out of fire bricks. Place two fire bricks on edge on the flat side of a third fire brick leaving about 1 inch gap. Place the spring in the gap and heat until a magnet doesn't stick. :hmm:
For hardening frizzens or thicker springs, a short length of 2-1/2" dia. pipe w/ an endcap that has a few holes drilled in it, is the "furnace". The part is wired for quenching and a Mapp Gas torch is used in the open end. The pipe concentrates the heat and a uniform color is easily achieved. When the suitable "color" is reached, the part is pulled out by the wire and quenched. I temper frizzens in our kitchen oven which has been checked w/ a thermo bridge for actual temp settings and springs are tempered on a heated plate which oddly enough has worked fine....Fred
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Last time I got it in my head that I was going to work with tempering metal, my 'furnace' was a slightly modified fire pit: It had an airway dug from the side to the bottom.
Having lost that to heavy melt one year, I have since tried butane and propane to no good effect. They simply do not get hot enough.
Josh
Having lost that to heavy melt one year, I have since tried butane and propane to no good effect. They simply do not get hot enough.
Josh
You can melt steel with butane or propane if you contain the heat as described above by some of the others. I forged a complete lock with a propane forge using nothing but a big propane torch bascially.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/flame-temperatures-gases-d_422.html
The truth has no agenda.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/flame-temperatures-gases-d_422.html
The truth has no agenda.
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Wild Bill.
In reality it is quite possible. The trouble is there is no way for anybody else to achieve the same exact process consistently. When heat treating , a consistent process is mandatory. The steel Knows the difference. Who wants to spend that much labor and time on an iffy process? I for one want one that works 100% of the time. To achieve that amount of success one needs to know exact temperatures and time spans. Any process that will give a person exact known temperatures and close time measurements is acceptable.
When I learned, spring making 50 years ago, accurate information was very hard to obtain. For a couple of years I was misled by old wives tales and information from people who never knew what the were talking about but were plenty willing to share their false info, at the same time swearing it was infallible. I broke dozens of hand forged springs until I finally had a metallurgist to tell me the truth. Nothing burns me more than the fact that this is still going on. Not to say that your system don't work but I will stay with the proven process. It just puzzles me why people keep trying to invent the wheel.
PS- some keep saying "the old timers did it that way" WRONG! maybe some old timer did but the majoity of professional did it the correct way by the most proven method.
In reality it is quite possible. The trouble is there is no way for anybody else to achieve the same exact process consistently. When heat treating , a consistent process is mandatory. The steel Knows the difference. Who wants to spend that much labor and time on an iffy process? I for one want one that works 100% of the time. To achieve that amount of success one needs to know exact temperatures and time spans. Any process that will give a person exact known temperatures and close time measurements is acceptable.
When I learned, spring making 50 years ago, accurate information was very hard to obtain. For a couple of years I was misled by old wives tales and information from people who never knew what the were talking about but were plenty willing to share their false info, at the same time swearing it was infallible. I broke dozens of hand forged springs until I finally had a metallurgist to tell me the truth. Nothing burns me more than the fact that this is still going on. Not to say that your system don't work but I will stay with the proven process. It just puzzles me why people keep trying to invent the wheel.
PS- some keep saying "the old timers did it that way" WRONG! maybe some old timer did but the majoity of professional did it the correct way by the most proven method.
Twice boom
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Yea we all should rush out and buy the latest atmosphere free furnace like the one Jerry owns ,that way we can do it like the pro's do otherwise nothing else will work.My A..
After sixty years my German Breech loader double's top lever spring broke.
I ordered from Brownell's their spring making kit. Selected the closest steel to the original and proceeded to make a spring just like the one That broke. From an old Black smiths book with out the aid of special furnaces or heating sources , I heated quenched in Marvel Oil then tempered it twice by dipping in oil and setting it on fire . The spring is still as good as the first day I made it six years ago.
So yes I see Wild Bills method working and working good.
Some of you guys do not give credit to the humans mind’s abilities nor do you give credit to those that paved the way before you. Just like the kids today you want everything made easy. Just do it.
Twice.
Yea we all should rush out and buy the latest atmosphere free furnace like the one Jerry owns ,that way we can do it like the pro's do otherwise nothing else will work.My A..
After sixty years my German Breech loader double's top lever spring broke.
I ordered from Brownell's their spring making kit. Selected the closest steel to the original and proceeded to make a spring just like the one That broke. From an old Black smiths book with out the aid of special furnaces or heating sources , I heated quenched in Marvel Oil then tempered it twice by dipping in oil and setting it on fire . The spring is still as good as the first day I made it six years ago.
So yes I see Wild Bills method working and working good.
Some of you guys do not give credit to the humans mind’s abilities nor do you give credit to those that paved the way before you. Just like the kids today you want everything made easy. Just do it.
Twice.
Thanks Twice. Some of us still like doing things the old fasioned way. You would be surprised what those old timers could do with homemade tools. That same smith taught me how to build wagon wheels and adjust the wooden axle for toe and camber. Why? Just because...
Making outrageous and false statement about what I said changes nothing. There were established methods of tempering and forging springs hundreds of years ago that still work today as they always did. I don't have an atmosphere free furnace. A lead thermometer and a pot of lead will work just fine and did for hundreds of years. So will burning off in oil if you know exactly how to do it.
You were the recipient of some luck in your spring making venture. Making a hundred springs is a little different.
Spring steel doesn't respond to personal criticism. Half measures sometimes work in a pinch. For professionals it's a different story.
By the way-- hot sand works fine if you know how hot it is and conform to the time factor.
Only in todays world can we be critisized for professing to do something the correct way.
This is why I will not do a explanation on spring forging methods. PS-- In the sixties I make double top lever springs by the dozen for gunsmiths using a coal forge and a lead pot. You don't need to preach to me about the old ways.
You were the recipient of some luck in your spring making venture. Making a hundred springs is a little different.
Spring steel doesn't respond to personal criticism. Half measures sometimes work in a pinch. For professionals it's a different story.
By the way-- hot sand works fine if you know how hot it is and conform to the time factor.
Only in todays world can we be critisized for professing to do something the correct way.
This is why I will not do a explanation on spring forging methods. PS-- In the sixties I make double top lever springs by the dozen for gunsmiths using a coal forge and a lead pot. You don't need to preach to me about the old ways.
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