Max load for an Italian reproduction enfield

[Va.Manuf.06]

ok adding to this thread. I got a navy arms Zouave repo. Shooting a 575 lee mini with greased lube grooves, it shoots on target at 25-100 yards. Problem is they keyhole at 25 yards. Go through paper sidewise for sure. Using a 572 round ball lee mold and a .010 patch that looks perfect after shot, I mean perfect, barely any black on it at all behind 60 grains of RS, the round ball shoots 3 feet high at 100 yards. Is the ballistics that different?

Dirty bore on the mini? Very shallow grooves in my limited opinion. Why go sideways that quick?

As Trot says, either you're using hard lead or the bullet is too small, maybe both? First, check your lead and cast only with pure lead, as soft possible so the skirts will expand, that may solve the problem. If not, you will need to accurately slug your barrel and get a mould that casts a Minié ball that is no more than .002 smaller than the bore.

And the rifling for the Zouave is about the only thing on the that reproduction that is pretty close to an original, it should be shallow, it was designed to shoot a Minié ball, not a round ball. I have never understood why anyone wants to go through the agony of forcing a patched roundball down a barrel rifled for the Minié but some do seem to have luck with it. :idunno: (Oh, I am going to catch it now...... :blah: )

 

[paulvallandigham]

The reason friends of mine who have and shoot .58 zuave replicas using RB loads is:

1. The recoil is less;
2. The ball shoots flatter than the minie; and
3. Their RB loads are more accurate than any minie ball load they have tried.

That doesn't mean that some guns DON'T shoot good groups with Minie balls. I suspect that some of these guns may even shoot better groups using Minie balls than RB loads.

I think its a wise owner of these gun who tries both minies and PRB in the gun to find out which is gun likes better. :hmm: Its not a choice of one or the other for every gun. :thumbsup: :hatsoff: Considering the weight of a .58 cal. RB, No one should sneeze at the use of these RBS for any kind of hunting. :shocked2: :hatsoff:

 

[bangfxr]

I go to a lot of shoots and the rule is PRB and my springfield groups well with them and hunt with minies. I can feel the differance between the two when firing but it isn't much.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Paul and bangfxr, good replies.

My "problem" with the patched roundball is the initial starting of the roundball and patch - the style of rifling designed for the Minié is very shallow and doesn't leave much room for the patch to "grab", meaning the ball may have to be slightly larger than normally used and the patch thinner. A short starter will be needed, of course (not a problem to me), and then the tight ball has to be rammed using a very thin ramrod. Is this not a problem once the bore becomes even a little foul?

A properly sized Minié is much easier and can be extremely accurate. If you check the scores recorded at the N-SSA regional and National shoots, you will find that you can't beat the accuracy of the Minié with a patched roundball. There was a very good reason why militaries all over the world moved away from the rifle designed for the patched roundball during the early 3rd quarter of the 19th Century. Also, keep in mind that civilian shooters were doing the same thing.

 

[paulvallandigham]

While I have not owned and shot a Zuave, I did have the same problem with an imported "Carbine" that had such shallow rifling, that they looked like burrs rather than lands. I ended up using .445" diameter RBs, with a .010" thick patch in that .451 barrel, in order to get any accuracy. The combination was a tight fit, and I had to slap my short starter pretty hard to get the PRB to seat.

So, the problem of shallow grooves and the need for a tight ball and patch combination is NOT limited to Zuaves or other guns designed to shoot conical bullets.

Yes, there is NO DOUBT that you will have to find a RB mold, or source of RBs that closely match the bore diameter of your Zuave, and that the patch will have to be thin enough to allow the PRB to be seated in the barrel. Everything about Zuave replicas, as with all modern replica barrels, has to do with individual measurements of those bores, and Groove diameters. The Rate of twist HAS to be MEASURED, too, to make sure what you actually have, as opposed at what someone who doesn't speak or write English stamped on the outside of a barrel.

You can't Sue these manufacturers, or their employees, in our Courts, guys! At least not successfully. :shocked2: :idunno: :surrender:

When you go to one of the NSSA events, there are suppliers( vendors) there who sell bullet sizing dies, and have a wider selection of RB molds in various sizes of .001" each, than you find elsewhere, as they make sales to people looking for the right size mold to cast the RB diameters that their guns need. Yes, you often pay more for these molds, but they work. Its no savings, if you buy a mold that doesn't work in your gun. :shocked2: :hmm: :wink:

The fun part of owning one of these replicas is that you surprise yourself with just how well they do shoot using RBs. :v :grin: :thumbsup:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

When you go to one of the NSSA events, there are suppliers( vendors) there who sell bullet sizing dies, and have a wider selection of RB molds in various sizes of .001" each, than you find elsewhere, as they make sales to people looking for the right size mold to cast the RB diameters that their guns need. Yes, you often pay more for these molds, but they work. Its no savings, if you buy a mold that doesn't work in your gun. :shocked2: :hmm: :wink:

Well Paul, the round ball acquisition for a Minié musket works well at Friendship, but not necessarily at the N-SSA shoots though round ball and picket ball moulds can certainly be found there. However, for competition, the .54. .577 and .58 as well as the .69 cal. rifle muskets are required to use Minié balls of one form or another.

 

[TFoley]

I got to following this thread & have a question fellows.I'm just a 100 yard round ball guy,so over
look my ignorance.

But how in the world could someone even see a
target at 900 yards.For me 300 yards target
would have to be the size of a car?????

Fly :idunno:

FWIW - the MLAGB also shoots .451cal BP rifles, albeit with tang sights - at 1200 yards. I'm sure the US equivalent does the same, else how would we all compete with each other?

Even I have shot my P-H Whitworth out to this extreme range, though with little signs of success, I have to admit.

tac

 

[paulvallandigham]

I am sorry. I did not mean to imply that RBs are used in those N-SSA matches. Quite the contrary. However, most shooters like to practice cheap, and that means using RBs when they can. I HOPE more shots are fired in practice than at matches. Those .58 cal. rifles have nominally .579" diameter bores( Land to land). However, like the oriignals, the replicas can vary in actual bore diameter. Molds can be found from .562 to .575", But, only measuring the actual bore diameter in a particular barrel can possibly tell you what diameter ball you need for that gun.

Like my fathers Post civil war Springfield trapdoor, with its way-over-bore diameter barrel, some of the replicas seen have bore diameters larger than .580". In those cases, you have to look for larger diameter balls. They are available, as are the molds.

What I find interesting about the reported N-SSA matches is that many shooters use the relatively light, original, powder charge of 60 grains, behind an original-designed Minie ball, and shoot very respectable scores.

By contrast, the friends I have who shoot Zuaves use the thicker skirted Minies sized to their bore diameters, and use more powder to flatten the trajectory. They fire excellent scores at both 50 and 100 yds.

To each his own, I guess. :idunno: :thumbsup:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Well, while some may use the "original style" Minié ball along with 60 grain charges, their numbers are very few. Almost all successful shooters who are bringing home the ribbons use the style and diameter that best suits their rifles or rifle muskets. And oversize barrels come in all makers and ages - some Civil War era originals are as large as .582+ and require oversized Miniés as well as many of the repops. Most also like to keep charges in the 45 grain range - just enough powder to get the ball to the target and do it consistently. Almost no one will use a charge over the original 60 grains for target work or, if they do it, hunting. More is just not necessary, the 400 - 550 grain bullet moving at close to 1000 ft. per second will kill anything consistently with careful shot placement. Now, does that include grizzly bear? Perhaps not, but for deer, elk, and even eastern black bear what you are calling "light loads" of 60 grains with a traditional bullet are more than enough.

Keep in mind that these shooters, many of whom will go through as much as 35 to 40 pounds of BP per year with practice and competition, use the softest lead they can find and, once they have found the correct diameter Minié for that gun, run it through a sizing die of the correct size and they carefully weigh each and every bullet and examine them carefully for even the slightest inconsistency. Exhaustive searches are done for the "best" lube and every bullet is lubed the same with their preferred concoction. Caps made by the same manufacturer are always used and, if a change is made, results are studied and, if necessary, adjustments are made. And, finally, once a can of powder is opened near the end of the season, as much of it is used for that season's shooting as is need and if there is any remainder, it is used for recreational shooting and does not see competition in the next season.

In other words, these people are as obsessive about their accuracy as any other winning target shooter. They are hard to beat or, for people like me, impossible to get close to in result.

:shocked2: :surrender: and finally :redface:

 

[paulvallandigham]

That was my understanding about the target shooter, who shoot minie balls. Its the RB shooters who more often seek flatter trajectories, for hunting,but they tell me that some of the better shooters of minies also use more powder than the 45 grains you mention. Since I am not at these matches, I defer to your comments. My knowledge comes from long time friends who consult me about powder charges, and other minutia relating to BP arms. They also know that I don't shoot these guns, or attend those matches. The know I have my own reputation as a "trick shot " shooter, where supreme accuracy is also required.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

There ya go. :wink:

 

[gjkershul]

I have found the service charge of 68.5 gr. 2F with the Parker Hale 566 gr. Lyman bullet to be very effective on Mule Deer and Elk out of my Euroarms Enfield Musketoon.

 

[BillinOregon]

Just for the heck of it, I might mention that the late Val Forgett used a load of 125 grains and a very heavy minie -- 600 grains if I remember right -- as his light gun load in a Navy Arms Buffalo Hunter on his African safari. The Buffalo Hunter was nothing more than a shortened and half-stocked Italian Zouave repop.
I'm not advocating recklessness, but frankly the breeches on the various .58s are extremely strong as far as BP goes, assuming the breech plug is properly installed.

 

[Jason Lewis]

aren't all of these matches timed? i've never been to an event, they do sound like a lot of fun.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

I believe so, I'll have to ask a friend who is an active, even rabid, participant.

 

[Jason Lewis]

i would think that'd make shooting patched round ball difficult to get a good score then. it really does sound like fun, i wish there was a skirmish event around here. i'd love to see one.

 

[Greg Hardy]

I've got an old Euroarms Cook and Brother carbine and it is actually stamped on the barrel "3 Drams Black Powder" only time I've ever seen that.

 

[omgb]

The gun Val used was not the Buffalo Hunter Zuave thing we see today. I had one of the guns copied after Val's Africa gun and it was one heavy thing for sure. It had a very full octagon barrel, adjustable sights and a non-set type trigger. It looked like a Hawkin Half-stock complete with brass furnature. Val's bullet was a 610 grain Shiloh Stakebuster mine on top of 180 grains of 3F. I never did find a Shiloh mould but using a Prker Hale type mine and 180 grains of 3f I managed to re-cock the hammer and burn the crud out of my face a couple of times. The rifle was poorly made. Too little spring power to reliably pop the caps, hammer poorly aligned, very soft nipple. I traded it off pretty quickly. Very dissapointing over all because NA is known for making very good stuff.

 

[Dphar]

Just for the heck of it, I might mention that the late Val Forgett used a load of 125 grains and a very heavy minie -- 600 grains if I remember right -- as his light gun load in a Navy Arms Buffalo Hunter on his African safari. The Buffalo Hunter was nothing more than a shortened and half-stocked Italian Zouave repop.
I'm not advocating recklessness, but frankly the breeches on the various .58s are extremely strong as far as BP goes, assuming the breech plug is properly installed.

Val Forgett, in this instance, was an idiot. But he was dong ADVERTISING for his business.
NOBODY back in the day used "expansive" bullets" on heavy game since they were necessarily of soft lead and would not penetrate better than a hardened ball of the same weight.
This is why heavy game rifles until the advent of smokeless powder, specifically the 450 NE class of cartridges, the projectile of choice for experienced hunters was a hardened round ball.
Though some of the BPCR were used with good effect the larger "stopper" calibers like the 4 bore used a "bullet" that was little heavier than a RB just a shape that loaded well in cartridges.
This is pretty well documented in the writings of Sir Samuel Baker and Forsythe. John Taylor related shooting "13 god bulls" and some Rhino with a 10 bore SB shooting hardened lead balls. All heart/lung shots. Stated he never lost an animal he shot with it. But he understood the limitations.
Yes its possible to hunt with Minies and other unpatched conicals so long as the limitations and dangers are understood.
But since a even a soft lead round ball or a size suitable for the game usually gives 30"+- of penetration on game I don't see the conical as being worth the bother.
For the most part neither did anyone else until the advent of the modern conical to allow the modern shooter to dispense with the patch which the average "buy a ML at Wal Mart for deer season" modern shooter could not seem to figure out. Then the gun writers, who were selling advertising got involved and the RB (just like the 30-06 when the various magnums first came out) became totally impotent. Results did not matter in this only "hype the product for the advertisers" was important.
But like the 30-06 the RB just keeps working.
BTW Turner Kirkland went to Africa with a 4 bore with RBs. PH had to finish off the Elephant. In his inexperience and ignorance Turner used pure lead and the balls failed to penetrate far enough on chest shots. Had he used heattreated WW alloy penetration would have been much better. Expansion was great, but that not what you want for Elephant. They use strong solids in all modern calibers for this as well.
A stunt man back in the 1960s shot a Rhino with a 58 Kentucky using 200+ grains of powder and 2 balls. But this is kinda silly too. Will probably never know the real details of this.
Dan

 

[windwalker_au]

The gun Val used was not the Buffalo Hunter Zuave thing we see today. I had one of the guns copied after Val's Africa gun and it was one heavy thing for sure. It had a very full octagon barrel, adjustable sights and a non-set type trigger. It looked like a Hawkin Half-stock complete with brass furnature. Val's bullet was a 610 grain Shiloh Stakebuster mine on top of 180 grains of 3F. I never did find a Shiloh mould but using a Prker Hale type mine and 180 grains of 3f I managed to re-cock the hammer and burn the crud out of my face a couple of times. The rifle was poorly made. Too little spring power to reliably pop the caps, hammer poorly aligned, very soft nipple. I traded it off pretty quickly. Very dissapointing over all because NA is known for making very good stuff.

well you got that rong val forgett used the navy arms buffalo hunter aswell as the big hawkin gun.
he took 8 foot 11 inch heavily maned selous male lion with the buffalo hunter and the shiloh 610grain minie bullet and 125 grains of fff powder.

this is from vals story told by him.

I also carried along a shorter less heavily loaded rifle, the
Navy Arms' 'Buffalo Hunter" , charged with the same bullet but
only 125 grains of FFFg powder. This carbine style gun is
lighter and handier than the big Hawken.
This was the rifle that happened to be at hand when a fine 8
foot 11 inch, heavily-maned Selous male lion presented himself
a day or so later. After preliminary maneuvering, the shot was
finally taken at about 40 yards, with the big ,58 Minie bullet
striking low on the right shoulder, and passing completely
though the animal, 'to ricochet howling off the hardpan beyond
old simba, The lion gave one mighty lunge, powered by his undamaged
hind quarters, and piled up on his nose, hors de combat.
Examination of this kill showed that the bullet had shattered
both shoulders and tom up all of the vital parts between them.
This was as graphic an example as one might ever expect to obtain
of the tremendous wounding power of big lead bullets
driven by black powder. And it took only 125 grains of powder.
Bernie :winks val with a zebra taken with the same load