max powder charge

[kcb_1983]

I've got a rifle made by hawkins arms N.Z with a 1" barrel, What sort of charge is going to push me over the edge with this rifle. I'm upto 90grns now. Can I go to something like 110grns without long term problems with this rifle. I'm using prb's now, my group sizes are droping in size with the increase in charge so can I go any further.

Regards

 

[Slamfire]

I couldn't tell you, my rifle is limited by the manufacturer to 90 grain loads of FFg. I've fired some 80 grain loads of FFFg, which is about as close as I intend to get to the edge. The rifle actually shoots better with 75 grains of FFg. You might contact the manufacturer of your rifle for a maximum load. :winking:

 

[faw3]

Wouldnt want you to use this but Ive been thinking over a few old Muzzle Blast Jan + March of 1986 about whats safe, they shot up to 500 grs in 1" 50 cal (DO NOT DO THIS) with 5 balls testing for cracks or a bulge and no problem Never try this in a 36 or 32 cal they went fast. You should be safe up to 110 or so but you didnt say what cal, and as Slamfire said the lower load is most the time the best, you need to get a hold of the maker, barring that contact NZ and see if they have a proof load on black powder. Be sure to try different ball size and patch, not a lot of help but maybe a start, Fred :hatsoff:

 

[wjschieber]

On one occasion in the excitement of the chase I have made the life-threatening mistake of double charging my rifle. It ended up being 250 grains of powder and a patched 50 cal round ball. I was very fortunate that I was not killed and that the rifle was not damaged. The idea of a max charge has very little to do with a round ball it is for modern rifles firing small diameter bullets that have to expand to do the job. A round ball loses so much velocity that it makes little difference at hunting ranges how fast it started. No matter how much powder you put in you will NEVER get a 300-yard hunting rifle. A 50 cal round ball makes a bigger hole going in than most 30 30’s do coming out. If you need more power get a bigger ball. Work on getting the most accurate load you can and learn to use it within it limits. That said I believe that most manufactures today keep their max loads low for legal reasons and that they could shoot more. BUT WHY TAKE THE CHANCE WHEN THE GAIN IS SO SMALL. Bill

 

[2172]

I think we need to know the caliber of that 1" bbl bdfore we can give you a sensible answer...not that the other comments warning you are wrong...Hank

 

[Norskie]

I see that you're getting tighter groups with increased charges, but have you tried lighter charges? These guns generally have a range of loads that they like, both heavy and light.
My most accurate, reliable deer killing load is a .50 prb over 60 grains 3f Goex. Lotta guys think that's way too light, but the deer do not. Piles them up every time out to 75 yds.
For a longer shot, my gun likes 85 grains, but even with that I limit myself to 100 yds.

 

[paulvallandigham]

i agree. I like to think of the black powder cartridges used after the civil war. A .45 cal gun shooting 70 grains of powder under a conical bullet was considered enough for the U.S. Army. Same for the .50-70. The Big 50 use at Adobe Wells to kill an Indian up on a ridge about 7/8 miles away was a .50-90 sharps. And, finally, Jim Bridger had a fixed powder measure made from an antler that threw 50 grains. He told a biographer that he used one " scoop " for deer and antelope, 2 scoops for elk, moose, and black bear, and 3 scoops for Grizzley Bears, in his .54 Hawken Rifle. Most shooters today would consider 50 grains under a PRB in a .54 Cal rifle to be very light. If you consider you are moving a 230 grain hunk of lead, it isn't.

Forget about maximum charges, and work on reasonable loads that are accurate. When you find lots of powder burning out the front of your barrel, you have reached the point of a maximum charge for that gun and load. Beyond that, the added weight of the powder justs adds recoil, without giving you any appreciable extra velocity out the muzzle. Use a chronograph to determine what is the best combination of powder, patch, lube and ball for your gun, and then stick with it. In my .50 cal. Flintlock rifle, I shoot 65 grains of FFg for my target work, and 85 grains for hunting. I am in the process of retesting my loads because I have started using over powder wads, which increase velocity in my gun, sothat I believe I will be able to reduce the amount of powder and get the same POI. How much I can reduce the powder charge is what I have to determine, but i am expecting it will be as much as 10 grains.

 

[faw3]

Sorry I guess I didnt explain the series in Muz Blast by barrel makers, they upped the charge and number of balls to see just how safe the barrels had been in 1986, I dont know anyone that shoots 5 balls at once anyway :rotf: it could hurt! Youd just have to read the 3 parts of the story, had nothing to do with how good it would shoot or anything but how strong different barrels and cal vs 15/16" vs 1",36,45,50,54,62s. Thats why I said 110 should be safe, in a 1" barrel,(except the 36 cal or 32) I shoot test shots of 150grs2f and .600 ball out of a 1" and had it mag flux after, no bulge or cracks after 200 shots. All that Ive seen here is right, excecpt dont expect 45/70 or 50/70 to hit like a round ball those are at least twice as heavy as the rb I rarely shoot over 70 2f in most mine, got a 54 that does like 90 before it gets right, then goes south at 100?? With out knowing the size your shooting Im just guessing 110 is a safe max load UNLESS its a 36 cal or 32 even in 1" barrel, my plinking load for the 62 is 60grs and safe max for busting big rocks is 150grs in a 1" barrel, you can order back issue's of those MB for 1.50. As Bill 1914 said your not going to get a 300 yd hunting rifle,with more powder if you'll read Clines book he was shooting way over that with under 100 grs (the over the lake or river story) Fred :hatsoff:

 

[rebel727]

My Cabelas(ArmiSport) Hawken .50 gives best accuracy with conicals at 100 grs. Round balls get squirrely at anything much over 90 grs. 110 grs. blows my hammer back to half cock so I don't go there.

 

[kcb_1983]

sorry I feel like an idiot for not telling you the calibre it's a 45 cal

 

[BS]

If you are looking for accuracy? The Goex link is a very good place to start. In most 50s more powder equals less accuracy, but not always.

Link to Goex Chart

 

[faw3]

For 45 cal 110 grs of 2f is fine, safe I mean .But remember youshould start lower and try ball and patch combos to get your best load it may be as low as 60grs which if your a great shot will bring down deer if hit in the right place in neck. Fred :hatsoff: Just my 2 cents

 

[John Taylor]

Fred, I thought I would let you know that I have shot 5 at a time many times. Been in a few shoots where the idea is to cut a board in half at a line. First shot is always loaded 1 prb when every one is looking. After the shooting gets going I use the same charge of powder and drop 5 unpatched balls in. You ought to see the wood fly. This was done with a 54 that was 15/16" across the flats. Never had a problem with the way the gun shot in matches afterwords.

 

[faw3]

While your on what is the 1214 bismuth compared to todays steel, the MB Jan 86 shows a 1" shooting 1 patched ball,700 grs 2f :shocked2: ouch, and 6 more balls and it didnt fail any test, Fullers pet bear load for his org Hawken was 200grs 2f and 2 patched 58s (575?s) in the 1960s. I bet its fun but Im not gtoing to hold a lite underhammer loaded with 700grs 2f and 7 balls to see the wood fly (but that might make one hell of a great bear load :rotf: Fred :hatsoff:

 

[kcb_1983]

while I'm on the subject of the 45 does pyrodex make much smoke. Everybody around here just uses bp myself included at this point.

 

[rebel727]

It smokes and it's more corrosive than bp.

 

[Zonie]

First off, I'll just say that IMO, for a .45 cal shooting a .440 roundball I wouldn't go over 100 grains of FFFg.
The Lyman BP Handloading manual says 100 grains of Goex FFFg in a 28 inch 1:48 twist barrel gives a velocity of 1962 FPS and a muzzle energy of 1094 Ft/Lb.
The chamber pressure with this load was 17,200 PSI which in my mind is getting up there for a BP gun.

The maximum load they tested in the .45 caliber was with 120 grains of any powder.
Goex FFFg gave a velocity of 2124 FPS with 120 grains of FFFg.

You asked about Pyrodex, and the answer is yes, it makes a lot of sulfur smelling smoke. It sometimes gives higher velocitys and chamber pressures than BP. For example, the 100 grain powder load using Pyrodex P under a .440 roundball gave a muzzle velocity of 2075 FPS with a chamber pressure of 18,900 PSI.

Using Pyrodex P under the roundball, a 120 grain load gave a velocity of 2212 FPS with a chamber pressure of 21,800 PSI.
As you can see, with Pyrodex the pressures go up pretty fast in a .45

If you plan on hunting deer with your gun, IMO, you should limit your range to roughly 70 yards.
With the 100 grain giving 1962 FPS, the velocity will fall off to about 1140 FPS (371 Ft/Lb) at 70 yards. At 60 yards, the velocity will be about 1219 FPS (423 Ft/Lb).

 

[faw3]

rebel 727 is correct about your Q. And while I dont share Zonie's worry about psi at 17,00, the barrel test fired 500 shots standing at 50,000 psi with no blow out or bulge in his test rifle, it never got to the point of blowing because the patch always went south way before any problem came up and psi dropped,REMEMBER THIS WAS BARREL TEST not for shooting or hunting. Hes right about your range if hunting but many deer have feel to the 45 ball at around 100 yds with a 110 to 120 load, but 70yds is a good range, if hunting and you want to go to 100yds try the Bal-ets I belive they will give you all you need at that range, myself I use 777 when target or plinking so I dont have to wipe the bore so much ( I was in a wheelchair and it isnt easy, try it with a 48"er barrel!) and for black powder I use Express for important shots like 5 shot 100yd grps, both are not cheap and regular Go is just fine, Pyro Id never use in my shooting area the air is wet and it starts to rust before you get a mile going home. Again just my 2 cents Maybe Zonie can pull up the psi, ect for 440 useing 2f. Fred :hatsoff:

 

[shmrck1]

KCB,
IMO, and this is just me,I really don't see
the need for 100grns in a .45 cal. Im mainly a
hunter and not a target shooter and in the area
I hunt it would be rare to take a responsible
shot over 50 yards, most between 30 to 50. I use
70grns 3fff Goex, .440 PRB with a .015 lubed
patch. This from a GM barrel with a 1/66 or 1/70
twist,I'm not sure which. This load has served me
well, but I would personally not exceed 65 or
70 yards with it, which I do not. Again let me
say that this is for me, but I know every M/L and every shooter are different.
snake-eyes :hmm:
Sorry about the bold print, must of hit a wrong
key :redface:

 

I agree with snake-eyes. No one needs to go to 100 gr of any kind of powder in a .45 MLer. My old Green River 42" barreled rifle shoots most accurately with 50 gr fffg and my hunting load is 65 gr fffg. Anything over 75 gr fffg in a .45 is pure overkill IMHO. You want .30-06 trajectories?--buy a .30-06.