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Maxi-Ball or Minie or R.E.A.L.?

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Big Bubba Daddy

32 Cal.
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Something tells me this has been covered and falls in one of those endless debate/personal preference questions but hey, I am new and need some advice.

I am just getting into shooting muzzleloaders and picked up a .50 cal. I am ordering a Lee pot and a double .490 mold but also would like to get a mold for either a Maxi-Ball, a Minie, an Improved Minie, a Modern Minie or a R.E.A.L. but have no idea which would be better for my purposes, which would be general plinking around and target shooting to get proficient enough to hunt pig and deer with my flintlock.

So what say you all?
 
I concur..balls, that are round, all that is needed for any North American game in a .50 cal 'cept for the big bears, get close, hit the right spot.
 
What's the twist rate of your rifle?

That will play a role in your projectile selection.

1:48 or faster and you'll be better with conicals.

1:48 or slower and roundball is right for you.

Of course if you work up loads you can almost make any projectile work in any twist if you don't go to extremes.

Give us a little more info on your rifle and we can provide more advice.

HD
 
You'll find some guys here are kinda round ball snobs, even if lead conicals fall within forum guidelines. I happily ignore them when I feel circumstances call for a conical. Your choice.

Though round balls suit my needs most of the time, when I reach for a conical I've had better service from the Lyman Plains Bullet than all others, both accuracy-wise and performance on game. It's a jimdandy no matter how you look at it.

One note worth passing along- This and most other all-lead conicals seem to shoot best with a lubed felt wad between them and the powder. Don't know why, but I can usually cut groups in half or more simply by adding that little greasy wad before seating the bullet.
 
Dawg is right.

Several years ago I bought a pretty nice used TC Hawken off a rack outside of Leonard Wood. I was just getting into BP and didn't know much about them. I tried for years to get that gun to shoot round ball, and could never get it to group at all. 12 to 18 inches were the norm, and that was at fifty yards.

Finally, just as I was about to give up on BP altogether, a fellow showed me how to measure the twist. Turned out it was a 1:28!

I shoot REALs out of it, and they'll group an inch or better if I do my part, but it will never handle PRB.
 
By all means use any of the modern bullets available for ML's but many have found that the traditional methods and gear provide a closer link to the past and a better understanding of what ML hunting is all about, and more rewarding in the long run.If you like bullets a real challenge would be to find a period type that matches the gun so to speak and work up a hunting load, that would be light years ahead of using the modern stuff, very few choose this path.
 
I have a 1-48 twist .50 cal. (actually 3 of them) I've tryed the Lee REAL and the Lee Mini, the REAL does well. I can't get the Mini to group well at all. I shoot PRB with good results also.
 
Sorry to disagree with you, but we have " Fast Twist " pistols, and revolvers that shoot RB All DAY LONG and very accurately, too. I am sure that a 1:28 ROT Barrel will shoot a PRB well, too. There is no physical reason it should not. You do have to use the correct Powder charge- and the faster the ROT, the more " fussy " you have to be about using the same amount of powder. You may have to change patching, or Lube, or find a different diameter of ball to shoot in that gun: you didn't tell us the caliber, or the diameter of the bore, or even what powder you tried in the gun! You may have to change powder, or use a filler or OP wad to protect the PRB from gases.

But, a 1:28 ROT barrel will shoot a PRB quite well. IF its a .45 caliber, start with a light load like 35 grs, FFFg powder. If its a .50, start with a light load of .45 grains FFg.

If this gun also comes with those shortened barrels, remember that you can't burn as much powder efficiently in a short barrel, as you can in a longer one. This applies to both BP and the subs. The Davenport Formula for figuring out your Maximum Efficient Load is 11.5 grains of powder per Cubic Inch of bore. ( PI R Squared, times 11.5 times the length of the barrel, where "Pi" is 3.1416", and R= the Radius of the bore( diameter divided by 2)).

Make sure you check the spent patches that travel down range from your muzzle after EACH shot, to see the condition of the patches. Tearing, or burning, indicate the cause of those wide groups is in the barrel, either a sharp edge at the crown, or on the rifling, that is cutting the patch, or too much powder, or too Hot a powder that is burning through too thin a patch, or a patch that is not properly lubed.

If you don't own it, Buy Dutch Schoultz's Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System for $15.00, to learn how to read your patches, and how to work up a load for any PRB. It is the fastest way I know to discover all the " secrets " of working up loads, and dealing with patch thickness, lubes, and powders. Its the best $15.00 you can spend on yourself. http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/
 
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Aside from whether your rifle was designed to shoot conicals or not, I think you have to ask yourself how important history and tradition are to you. Many folks on this forum approach this with a desire to emulate "what it was like back then" and other don't give hoot what our forefathers did, they just want to shoot the damn gun. Both are correct, but it helps to know what your motivation is so you get the advice you need.
 
I've tryed them all in about 40 or more rifles over the years and most everyone here is correct the 2 above spell it out real good. Round balls are great for target shooting if you want to get the last 100th of a inch out of it and thats what I shot most he time ( in hospital to much to get time to even try now days-But been at it since 1971 shooting BP that is) Your going to find that every rifle is different, even the same makes just a # apart when being made, as little as 3 grs can throw your shot some place else, and a ton of other things, myself if it wasn't RBs it would be R.E.A.L easy to make and cheap easy to use mould, if they made one Id make "ball-ets" they called hem "bastered balls" back before 1800 and after awhile. None are target grade. Its going to be a try this and that till you get the right one to do what you want,or what you can get by on. Hang in its fun when you get in to it and remember Black Powder none of that fake stuff you'll save yourself time. Fred :hatsoff:
 
90% of the time I shoot PRB thru my .45 cal, 42" Green Mountain barrel with 1/66 twist. 50 grains of 3F Goex will get almost all jobs done with fine accuracy. However, when I hit the woods in November after Whitetails, I feel like I need a little more "punch" than those 127 grain round balls produce. I have shot REAL's on and off for 20+ years with good success. I picked up a LEE mold for a 200 grain REAL and it works wonderfully in the .45. I bump the powder to 65 grains and like some of the other posters stated, I put a lubed wad over the powder. On paper the REALs will group right with the PRBs out to 75 yards. I have found they are easy to mold, easy to load and easy to lube, as well.
 
This is one of those topics that can really get wrapped around the details.

Conicals work very well in many guns. You do have to concerned first about the rate of twist. A faster rate of twist works better. That being said, we have the US military rifles designed for Minie balls that have a twist of 1 in 72" that are reasonably accurate. The next consideration is the matching of bore size to the diameter of the conical round. Included in that is the depth of rifling which should be shallow for a conical. The top band of the conical should be large enough to engrave the rifling. If the conical is to small in diameter, then the bullet will not engage the rifling properly and poor accuracy will be the result.

Flat based conicals such as the T/C Maxi Ball and the Lee REAL can tolerate fairly large powder charges and still be accurate enough for hunting purposes.

The Minie balls are another matter. They have a cupped base, sometimes called a skirt, that depends on the powder charge expanding the base to engage the rifling. The rest of the bullet is slightly smaller than the bore diameter to ease loading. The concern with a Minie ball is that too much powder will cause the skirts at the base of the bullet to expand and split and you can imagine what sorts of bad effects that has on accuracy. Minie balls will have a natural top limit of powder charge.

Measure your bore, determine your twist and tell us what these are and we can come up with some better answers for you. Not to day that the previous weren't good, its just that with a bit more knowledge of your gun, we can improve on our replies.
 
Everyone has a different opinion here. What works for one fella might not work for the next. What I do is acquire a sampling of each different type of projectile I wanted to try and just test each load. When I found the right one for my rifle, I tuned it just right. You just have to find what your gun likes to shoot.
 
Another big reason to shoot RB's is they don't shift off the charge like the maxi's do. :shake:
 
Thanks for all the advice guys.

First off, FW get well :thumbsup:

As to the issue of historical aspects, I get it, and plan on shooting mostly round ball, but hey, have the pot and the lead, might as well play around with everything right :wink:

I just got the gun (an Investarm .50 Cal), and I have yet to figure out twist. The barrel length is 29" if I am measuring it right. You can see pics here: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?fid/11/tid/224305/pid/607332
 
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Nice looking flinter you have got..well you need BP to shoot it, nothing else is worth trying. That being said I've had 3 but no flints mine was 1X48 I think youll find your around 1x66. You know how to find your twist rate? 50 cal on pig is going to be fun if they are like we have here I've hit them with double shot 62s and still about got run over but that was when I was new at shooting those things. (My part of Tex is so over run they (the county) has put a bounty on them, it'll pay for your lead and farmers don't seem to mind you shooting all you can! :rotf: they have eaten some to the poor house. The long twist 50 wont take a very long slug just work up to it, and good luck and keep on just shooting you'll find a good loas that will work out for you. (if I could get to my books Id look up wt's of each, Im thinking the Buffalo Ball-et is what youd want to shot hog/pig its heavy forits short size from lack of grease groves. :hmm: someone help the man out with this. At least you can get great speed with 3F black powder shoooting those pest. Happy hunting! Fred :hatsoff:
 
BrownBear said:
You'll find some guys here are kinda round ball snobs, even if lead conicals fall within forum guidelines. I happily ignore them when I feel circumstances call for a conical. Your choice.

Though round balls suit my needs most of the time, when I reach for a conical I've had better service from the Lyman Plains Bullet than all others, both accuracy-wise and performance on game. It's a jimdandy no matter how you look at it.

One note worth passing along- This and most other all-lead conicals seem to shoot best with a lubed felt wad between them and the powder. Don't know why, but I can usually cut groups in half or more simply by adding that little greasy wad before seating the bullet.


In addition to being RB snobs Im not sure some have the capacity to undersatnd the question....A question in which "roundballs" could NOT possible be the awnser :doh: :wink:
I totally concur with Brown Bear here.
 
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but name calling doesn't get much information shared.

The Reason so much stress is placed on shooting the PRB is because TRADITIONAL rifles, and smoothies are basically 100 yard, and shorter distance HUNTING firearms. They come with open sights, and that makes it difficult for all but the very best shooters to shoot tight groups at ranges much over 100 yards. The number of clubs and public ranges where a shooter can practice shooting at longer ranges is limited, here in the Lower 48 states. The Further East you go, the more limited those opportunities are.

For hunting most game at 100 yards and less, the PRB is perfectly designed to kill. At the low velocities the ball is traveling, even at 100 yds., it still expands on hitting flesh and bones.

I don't know anyone here who objects to anyone using Conicals, if YOUR GUN IS DESIGNED TO SHOOT THEM! BrownBear lives on Kodiak Island, in the Pacific Ocean, miles from land, by any means. There are reportedly more bear living on the island than there are people! It would be NUTS for someone in his position to not regularly arm himself with a ML rifle that is designed for, and he shoots conicals in it as a matter of course. Most of us don't live in country where the majority of wildlife think of us as " lunch ", rather than a predator to be feared. :rotf: :nono:

There are large bore guns that will kill bears quite well with large Round Balls, but I don't know many hunters insane enough to want to try it, without someone backing them up with a large caliber rifle shooting conicals, too.

There is room on this forum for both groups. What we traditionalist, RB advocates are constantly confronting, however, is the sales HYPE of the Dark Side of the ML industry, telling new shooters that a conical in a plastic shoe fired at Gee Whiz Velocity out of a gun with a modern Scope on it, will let them kill deer as far as a deer can be seen. Frankly, we have enough problems with Yahoos roaming the woods every fall, shooting at anything that makes a noise, or moves, without irresponsible manufacturers telling guys they can stay out a few more days during the " Muzzle Loading Season ", by buying their new Wonder Zip Gun, use shotgun primers, modern powders, and those funny bullets to reach way out there and kill that deer they haven't been able to find during the normal firearm gun season. I doubt very much that BrownBear faces these kind of " Overcrowding " hunting hazards on Kodiak Island.

I have the parts for a .50 caliber Hawken style rifle to finish, but I never intended it to be needed to kill deer here. At the time I bought all the parts, I was thinking it might be needed for Elk, and maybe fore large Mule deer. Of course, it would be good for moose, caribou, and Black Bear. I was not too sure about using it on Brown or Polar bears. I also never expected to have the opportunity to hunt in Alaska. One of the reasons that gun remains as parts is because my hunting has been limited to deer, and my RB rifle is more than adequate for the largest White Tail I hunt.

I suspect that is the same frame of reference of most of the people BrownBear labels as " snobs", here. Its not that we are critical of conicals as killing projectiles at all; rather, we have each enjoyed the discovery that our ancestors actually knew the secret of using the right projectile for deer- and its the pure lead, Round Ball-- in the right kind of gun with the limits imposed on the shooter by the open sights used.

When I killed my first deer, with a .50 cal. RB at about 40 yards, a man staying in a camper near where I parked my car, helped me drag and carry that carcass out of the woods. His father was shooting a .54 caliber MLer with Maxiballs, and had complained the night before, when I had met them, about his shoulder being sore from firing 5 rds. through his gun at a paper plate he had put up in a dry wash about 60 yards away. He fired 5 shots, and hit the 10 inch plate only 3 times. He was shocked to see that my RB had gone completely through this large doe's chest, breaking a rib going in, and another going out. He didn't know a RB could do that. He muttered something about using RBs in the future so his shoulder would not be so sore. I don't recall ever seeing his gun, but He hauled out a H&R " Topper" single Barrel shotgun in 10 GAUGE :shocked2: , and fired a couple of 3 inch casings loaded with slugs at the same target. The first shot missed. The second shot hit an edge, and he let his son shoot the third shot. The man was only about 5'4" tall, and no more than 150 lbs. The gun could not have weighed 7 lbs. They offered me a shot with the gun, but I begged off. He told me he bought the gun to shoot fox, and found some deer slug loads for it, and brought it out as a " backup " gun for hunting deer! Wow! NO wonder he thought he needed a .54 shooting conicals with who knows how much powder in it to kill a deer!

I wish you and others who think that only a conical will kill, all the best. As for Brownbear, I know from reading his posts what conditions exist where he hunts, and I don't fault his choice of conicals over RB. at all. :hatsoff:
 
paulvallandigham,

Thanks for your thoughts. I do appreciate you taking the time to write and for your 2 cents on the matter.

I am somewhat surprised by some of the reaction this post has caused. I understand traditionalist, I am one, I have spent the past 10 years hunting with longbows and all the associated gear (strings, quivers, arrows, gloves, outerwear, etc. etc.) crafted by my own hands. Trust me, a 100 yard kill seems like a heck of a long way away as I limit my longbow shots to withing 20 yards, I am probably the last guy you all need to worry about in regards to taking ridiculously long shots, buying into to the "got to have this now" marketing hype or expecting whiz bang performance. If that was me, I wouldn't have bought a flintlock.

So I do truly appropriate your input on this post, but please, do not presume to know what I think or believe.

I can tell you what I want, and that is to learn as much as I can about shooting my flintlock, part of that process for me is asking questions, as well as exploring and trying every option available.

Ultimately I want to have fun on the range and become proficient with my flintlock before ever taking it afield, my hunting ethics demand this in the very least...I do not mind killing game, I very much mind wounding game.

So if you take a another look at my first post you will see I have already ordered a double roundball mold, so everyone calm down a bit, round balls of lead will be flying I promise :wink:

If I come off testy, my apologies, its not intended, its been a bad week :doh:
 
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