Maximum loads for 1858 Remington

[Bad Karma]

No, I had both moulds made up by Lee, they're modifications of the Lee conicals. My NEXT mould will be an Accurate, the 45-200s, or the 45-220s. Those big honking flat points should hit HARD. I've shot deer with a 44-280wfn out of my modern 44. They flat work.

I’m thinking of a flat pointed Kerr so that I can add a bit of hardness, maybe 30:1 for big Muley bucks. They load really slick in any replica I’ve tried.

 

[Pete453]

That should do the trick, i cast mine at 9-11 brinell, they seem to shoot well. those 220s have killed 2 deer at the furthest range ive shot deer. The 185s killed a big doe out of my 58 Remington at 34 paces. So the old guns have what it takes when fed properly. Do you have any pictures of the Kerrs after the rammer flattens them out?

 

[Stantheman86]

There's only so much power we're going to get from these guns , and that's fine.

For the 1840s, the Walker and Dragoons were massive leaps in technology , 60 or even 50 grains and a conical was a powerful loading back then

Now it's about equal to a .44 Special loaded on the warm side.

Plus, with a max load in an 1858 you're blowing some of that powder out unburned anyway

You really can't cure the MagnumItis with a percussion revolver. The Walker is the best you're going to get.

Technology advanced and guys like Elmer Keith gave us the .44 Magnum.

 

[smoothshooter]

I’m attempting to find the maximum load for an 8 inch Pietta 44 caliber 1858 Remington using the Kerr bullet from Erasgone, and also wondering about historic loadings

Would it be possible to use the Kerr bullet over 35 grains of 3F? What about 40? Or is 30 all that would fit? I would be using either triple 7 or Swiss.

What load would historically been used in paper cartridges?

Would it be safe to use 4F or Swiss 0b? Is it even possible to find Swiss 0b? I doubt that would be safe in an original, but what about these modern reproductions? Generally 4F is for priming only, but I wonder…


My goal, if possible, is to get a Kerr to 1,000 feet per second or better.

I should provide context. My entry in to the world of cap and ball has 3 main reasons: 1: fun, it is a lot of fun 2: possible use in cowboy action and 3 (The main one): as a backup in a no ammo scenario. I still remember the last panic and the empty ammo shelves and damn near $2 a round for 9mm plinking rounds, and it’s still not entirely over as prices are still not quite back to pre panic levels. What if that happens again, and what if the ammo does not come back (I’ll leave the reason up to you), how do I get ammo? Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets. I see cap and ball as a work around, I can mold my own bullets from scrap lead, I don’t need casings, and if I really have to I can make my own percussion caps too (and they will not sell out right away like everything else, though they eventually do), so they are a way to keep shooting. Also, should the time ever come when I am even out of my defensive ammo they are something that I can carry, that’s mostly my reasoning to find the max load, close range defense, and at 1,000+ feet per second (or even close) a heavy conical like a kerr would rival even some modern ammo for power.

Why the Kerr? Because conicals are better and the Kerr is the only historical bullet that will fit all the modern reproductions (the Johnson and Dow is close but there are some that even it won’t fit).

You cannot overload a percussion revolver as long as you are using black powder or an acceptable substitute.

 

[user 33697]

I’m attempting to find the maximum load for an 8 inch Pietta 44 caliber 1858 Remington using the Kerr bullet from Erasgone, and also wondering about historic loadings

Would it be possible to use the Kerr bullet over 35 grains of 3F? What about 40? Or is 30 all that would fit? I would be using either triple 7 or Swiss.

What load would historically been used in paper cartridges?

Would it be safe to use 4F or Swiss 0b? Is it even possible to find Swiss 0b? I doubt that would be safe in an original, but what about these modern reproductions? Generally 4F is for priming only, but I wonder…

My goal, if possible, is to get a Kerr to 1,000 feet per second or better.

I should provide context. My entry in to the world of cap and ball has 3 main reasons: 1: fun, it is a lot of fun 2: possible use in cowboy action and 3 (The main one): as a backup in a no ammo scenario. I still remember the last panic and the empty ammo shelves and damn near $2 a round for 9mm plinking rounds, and it’s still not entirely over as prices are still not quite back to pre panic levels. What if that happens again, and what if the ammo does not come back (I’ll leave the reason up to you), how do I get ammo? Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets. I see cap and ball as a work around, I can mold my own bullets from scrap lead, I don’t need casings, and if I really have to I can make my own percussion caps too (and they will not sell out right away like everything else, though they eventually do), so they are a way to keep shooting. Also, should the time ever come when I am even out of my defensive ammo they are something that I can carry, that’s mostly my reasoning to find the max load, close range defense, and at 1,000+ feet per second (or even close) a heavy conical like a kerr would rival even some modern ammo for power.

Why the Kerr? Because conicals are better and the Kerr is the only historical bullet that will fit all the modern reproductions (the Johnson and Dow is close but there are some that even it won’t fit).

I load my Uberti .44 ca. 8" barrel Remington NMA with the following chronograph averages using a .454 ball with no ill effects.

25 gr. Triple 7 averaged 881 fps for a calculated 241 ft-lbs energy
30 gr. Triple 7 averaged 990 fps for a calculated 305 ft-lbs energy

I would not go much beyond 30 gr. of Triple 7.

 

[aeatwood]

I’m attempting to find the maximum load for an 8 inch Pietta 44 caliber 1858 Remington using the Kerr bullet from Erasgone, and also wondering about historic loadings

Would it be possible to use the Kerr bullet over 35 grains of 3F? What about 40? Or is 30 all that would fit? I would be using either triple 7 or Swiss.

What load would historically been used in paper cartridges?

Would it be safe to use 4F or Swiss 0b? Is it even possible to find Swiss 0b? I doubt that would be safe in an original, but what about these modern reproductions? Generally 4F is for priming only, but I wonder…

My goal, if possible, is to get a Kerr to 1,000 feet per second or better.

I should provide context. My entry in to the world of cap and ball has 3 main reasons: 1: fun, it is a lot of fun 2: possible use in cowboy action and 3 (The main one): as a backup in a no ammo scenario. I still remember the last panic and the empty ammo shelves and damn near $2 a round for 9mm plinking rounds, and it’s still not entirely over as prices are still not quite back to pre panic levels. What if that happens again, and what if the ammo does not come back (I’ll leave the reason up to you), how do I get ammo? Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets. I see cap and ball as a work around, I can mold my own bullets from scrap lead, I don’t need casings, and if I really have to I can make my own percussion caps too (and they will not sell out right away like everything else, though they eventually do), so they are a way to keep shooting. Also, should the time ever come when I am even out of my defensive ammo they are something that I can carry, that’s mostly my reasoning to find the max load, close range defense, and at 1,000+ feet per second (or even close) a heavy conical like a kerr would rival even some modern ammo for power.

Why the Kerr? Because conicals are better and the Kerr is the only historical bullet that will fit all the modern reproductions (the Johnson and Dow is close but there are some that even it won’t fit).

My guns shoot better with 2F vs 3F, and I get better accuracy and hit close to PoA with RB vs conical.

They used catridges loaded with conicals and LIGHT charges (17-22), which worked better for foraging (shooting livestock for food) than rb did.

BUUUT, people who used them for decades after the war generally used RB, which seemed to work better as a people-shooter and small game getter.

For what you are describing you want a Ruger. As good as the later Uberi's and Piettas are, the Ruger is 10x the gun, and offer sights you can zero to the load. It also holds mor powder tha all but the Dragoons and Walker.

 

[Darto]

some folks have linked to the following site from this forum. Basically, I think he says that if anything with grease (such as a wad) is loaded before the ball, or with the ball, then it will attract teeny bits of black powder and cause chain fires. He says, no grease at all: no chain fires. (Article 2).
I'm just posting this, because others here posted the link and I saw it.

https://geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps1Mobile.html

 

[nick_1]

any more that 30g of 777 in my 1858s screws start coming loose.

 

[Dale Lilly]

While we are on this subject, what load would you recommend for a 1858 Rem brass frame and a 1851 Colt Replica brass frame? Dale
Edit: both are in fine condition.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

Just my 2 cents. I have the same gun you do. With just ball and powder I got 40gr of 3f in the cylinder. I shoot 30 with a felt wad and 25 in paper cartridges all the time.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

While we are on this subject, what load would you recommend for a 1858 Rem brass frame and a 1851 Colt Replica brass frame? Dale
Edit: both are in fine condition.

I've consistently loaded 30gr 3f in my brass framed 1858 with nary a problem.
Colt design in a brass frame? 10 to 15 max or get a decent one with a steel frame.

 

[NorthFork]

While we are on this subject, what load would you recommend for a 1858 Rem brass frame and a 1851 Colt Replica brass frame? Dale
Edit: both are in fine condition.

While I would not recommend this as an every day activity, I've loaded max fffg Goex loads into both brass framed Colts and Remington's. Both 36 and 44 cal. AND quite often under a RB. Just yesterday I shot 56 shots of 35grs fffg Goex, .457" ball, and crisco smeared over the ball with no peening or stretching on a Pietta 1860 brass framed .44 cal 'fantasy gun'. This pistol has seen roughly 1000 shots. 50% with 25grs ffg and 10 grs corn meal and 50% max loads. No issues so far. Modern brassers are not the same as the 1960's pistols.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

I can get 35 grains FFF Swiss under a round ball and that's quite a snappy load.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

I would not go much beyond 30 gr. of Triple 7.

Thats what I use. The same weight of Holy Black is 15% hotter. So the 777 30gr is about 34gr of Black.

 

[Stantheman86]

For reference, since it helps me to "equate" charges with period cartridges....

.45 LC = 40gr of "pistol powder"
.45 Schofield = 30gr pistol powder

With a conical, 30gr of 3f is no slouch of a charge. Not even with a round ball .

30 grains of 3f and a .454 ball feels like plenty of pop when I shoot it at the range.

If you load 40 grains and a conical in a brasser you are basically shooting .45 LC through it

 

[Stantheman86]

Thats what I use. The same weight of Holy Black is 15% hotter. So the 777 30gr is about 34gr of Black.

I use 30gr of 777 "2f" and it feels snappier than the equivalent load of 3f

I feel , maybe wrongly, that 777 is more of a "semi smokeless" substitute powder and has more of a pressure curve than black powder or even Pyrodex. So I don't use 777 in brassers anymore even though the brass is a stronger alloy now.

I'm just going by "feel". Real Black has more of a rolling boom, and a sharp "shove" of recoil , while 777 has a sharper "crack" and a snappier recoil.

Also, back in 2008 I stretched the wedge slot of a Pietta .36 Navy with topped off chambers of 777 "3f" and Buffalo Ball-ets, some loaded upside down . The Piettas may have been "softer" 15 years ago but I definitely damaged the barrel with what was probably too hot of a charge and conicals. Compressing the 777 that much was probably bad too, some of the shots had some really snappy recoil. I was kinda ignorant of this stuff then and was most likely creating an over pressure situation.

 

[PastorB]

To simply answer the original question, I can get 30 grains of powder (volume) in my Pietta 1858, using the Kerr bullet. That required a good pull on the loading lever to get the bullet seated low enough to cycle. Maybe 31-32 grains could be forced in, but that isn't my game. I much prefer 25 gr. 777 for 900 fps with the Kerr, and really 20 gr. is fine for around 820fps with a 225 gr. bullet, which is slightly more than the real world velocity of a .45acp (800 fps-ish) with a 230 gr. slug. 30 grains of 777 gives about 960fps with the Kerr, not enough "improvement" to batter my guns to death with.

 

[Sparkplug]

I have the 1858 Sherrif with the 5" barrel. My favorite load for it is 30gr Pyrodex P/lubed felt wad/200gr Lee R.E.A.L.

Here are the results at 40yds, hitting a 1/8" mild steel plate, then 4 milk jugs. They were caught in the 5th jug both times.

 

[ernbar]

Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets.

I have been reloading since the late 1970s. I feel the same way as you about primer prices but it’s impossible to find them cheaper than $90 for 1,000.
Reloading your own really cuts down on $ specially when reloading certain calibers, even with the higher cost of reloading components and hazmat fees. To offset those fees, If I can’t get them locally I will order several items that helps to spread out the fee cost. Also helps when free shipping is featured or hazmat fees are waived by the shipper on special promotions.

 

[smoothshooter]

I’m attempting to find the maximum load for an 8 inch Pietta 44 caliber 1858 Remington using the Kerr bullet from Erasgone, and also wondering about historic loadings

Would it be possible to use the Kerr bullet over 35 grains of 3F? What about 40? Or is 30 all that would fit? I would be using either triple 7 or Swiss.

What load would historically been used in paper cartridges?

Would it be safe to use 4F or Swiss 0b? Is it even possible to find Swiss 0b? I doubt that would be safe in an original, but what about these modern reproductions? Generally 4F is for priming only, but I wonder…

My goal, if possible, is to get a Kerr to 1,000 feet per second or better.

I should provide context. My entry in to the world of cap and ball has 3 main reasons: 1: fun, it is a lot of fun 2: possible use in cowboy action and 3 (The main one): as a backup in a no ammo scenario. I still remember the last panic and the empty ammo shelves and damn near $2 a round for 9mm plinking rounds, and it’s still not entirely over as prices are still not quite back to pre panic levels. What if that happens again, and what if the ammo does not come back (I’ll leave the reason up to you), how do I get ammo? Well I do reload, but to this day finding primers is not simple and I categorically refuse to pay $90-$100+ for a box of 1,000, and during a panic powder is an issue getting too, as are casings, and bullets. I see cap and ball as a work around, I can mold my own bullets from scrap lead, I don’t need casings, and if I really have to I can make my own percussion caps too (and they will not sell out right away like everything else, though they eventually do), so they are a way to keep shooting. Also, should the time ever come when I am even out of my defensive ammo they are something that I can carry, that’s mostly my reasoning to find the max load, close range defense, and at 1,000+ feet per second (or even close) a heavy conical like a kerr would rival even some modern ammo for power.

Why the Kerr? Because conicals are better and the Kerr is the only historical bullet that will fit all the modern reproductions (the Johnson and Dow is close but there are some that even it won’t fit).

It is not possible to overload a percussion revolver with black powder.
It is easy to experiment with powder levels and bullets to find the type of load you are looking for.
BP is much more forgiving than smokeless powder.