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MEASURING TWIST

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cheatherly

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Experts, please check my method. First, I use a straight edge to draw a line the lenght of the ram rod. Then I insert in completely into the bore with a tight patch. I then mark the muzle where the mark is on the ram rod. I slowely with draw the rod so it will rotate with the rifling. When I have the ram rod nearly out I mark the bore at the point where the line on the ram rod had moved too. I then mark the ram rod even with the bore( I had also mrked the starting point. I then take out the rod and measure the distance between the starting and ending point. Then I use a protracter to measure the degrees of rotation. Using these two numbers I can calculate the twist. The reason I ask this , is I yesterday purchase an Invest Arm rifle, and the twist measures 1:74. ( I posted earlier about this rifle)
 
Use your rod with a tight patch as you already did. Push the rod in all the way, mark the rod at the muzzle. Pull the rod out until it has turned 1/4 turn. Measure the distance from your mark to the muzzle and multiply by four, this will give you the twist.

Ex:
It takes the rod 12 inches to rotate 1/4 turn. You multiply that by four, 12 X 4 = 48, it is a 1:48 twist.

HD
 
I do it exactly in the same way as the first responder and it seems to work.
 
I use Huntin Dawg's method, except I mark the ramrod with two lines 180 degrees apart and then measure the rod when it has rotated a half turn.
 
The rod turns 1/4 turn in 18 1/2 inches, that gives me 1:74 twist. That seems unusually slow for this rifle. I was wondering if there might be something special about this gun, maybe. Thanks.
 
YOur patch is not tight enough! YOu are slipping it over the lands. Use a double patch to get a really tight fit. Oil the patch, so it will slide down the barrel, but you want a very tight fit, so it won't slip on you when taking a measurement. Then do as Hunting Dawg has recommended.

I know of no 1"74 " rate of twist barrels. There are a few 1:70, and 1:66" twist rate barrels, but not the number you got. Do it again. My brother had the same problem determining his ROT in a new gun barrel. I had him double the patches and he got very good readings the first time he tried.
 
I did it six times! I don't really believe the results either! I used a doubled over t- shirt material patch with hoppes #9. I'll get a friend to check, I could be screwing it up? I kind of hope it really is 1:74, I've got enough fast twist rifles.
 
The no-slip method: I cut a 1/16 brass pin that spans the bore in the grooves, I then drill a hole in my long-enough dowel and insert the pin, close to the end of the dowel, so it protrudes the same distance out each side. I then mark the dowel at 6 inch increments. I also mark one of the grooves at the bore. I then insert the dowel in the bore with one end of the brass pin entering at the indexed groove. As the dowel travels down the bore mark every six inches at the indexed groove,or if you're steady, just hold your pencil at the groove and let the dowel spiral past. Withdraw the dowel and determine the point at which the halfway around point was reached. Measure and double and there you have your rate of twist. All that being said, it doesn't much matter.
 
IMHO, tee shirt material is too thin, try a shooting patch, ticking, light wieght canvas, or a cleaning patch. Maybe ticking with tee shirt filler?

Use whatever combinaion you have to get a TIGHT fit, but not so tight that it wil hang up in the bore. Lubricating the patch should prevent the rod from hanging up.

Who is the barrel maker, and what is the caliber?
a twist of 1-72 is somewhat common in some brands of barrels.
J.D.
 
Afternoon guys - I don't want to hi-jack the thread, but how do you measure if it is " gain rifling"??? WE
 
Gain Twist is a form of rifling popularized by the famous barrel maker, Harry Pope, back in the 1970s, and '80s. The twist starts slowly at the breech or throat of the gun barrel, and the rate of twist speeds up until the bullet leaves the muzzle. Gain twist was NOT used with PRB. Its was intended and used in shooting bullets- and paper patched bullets at that.

Harry believes that the sudden explosion and overcoming of the inertia of the bullet as it sat in the chamber, or breech of the barrel cause the bullet lead to skid as it tried to gain velocity, in effect cutting the outer edge of the bullet, and destroying the gas sealing fit of bullet to barrel on the rifling lands. Later, when hard cast bullets and copper jacketed bullets were used, it became clear that this was not the case, no matter how fast a ROT is used and how fast the bullet is traveling down the barrel. Part of the reason for this NOT happening has to do with some laws of physics which were not understood at the time Pope was doing his work.

For our purpose, visualize a bullet in a barrel at the moment the powder ignites and gases start pushhing on the bullet. The impact of the gases on the bottom, or backend of the bullet will cause the bullet to distort in shape, driving part of the metal sideways into the grooves until the grooves are filled, and will take no more metal. ( in paper patched lead bullets, its the paper that is shoved sideways into the grooves.)

From that point on all the added gas pressure put on the base of the bullet pushes the bullet down the barrel, and out, with the bullet gaining velocity rapidly, while in the barrel. We have all seen enough rocket launches to be able to visualize what is happening to that bullet in the barrel once it begins to move. Motion is expotential, once the inertia is overcome. Its only when the bullet leaves the barrel and the gases no longer can push on the back of the bullet that the bullet begins to lose velocity.

Gain twist was actually adopted for the Italian Carcano rifle in 1891, when the 6.5 x 52 mm Mannlicher Carcano cartridge was adopted by that country. Its is the only military rifle which ever used the gain twist system, and it was also the first smokeless power military cartridge adopted by any country. Pope, and obviously, the Italian government, thought that the gain twist would make their cartridge shoot flatter and farther. All the 6.5 MM cartridges are good flat shooters, even at the modest velocities of these old war dogs, but it has more to do with the long skinny bullets that have extraordinary Ballistics Coefficients, that give the calibers their reputations for long range accuracy and killing power, than anything
" gain twist " contributes to the mystique!

If you are shooting a single shot BP cartridge gun, or a bench gun that uses a false muzzle to load the bullets, then you can use paper patching to protect the bullets from the bore, and rifling, and THEN, you can consider if Gain Twist is something you might want to fool with.

There is a barrel maker that has figured out Harry Pope's Code, and can make gain twist barrels in all the old Pope calibers. There was an article about him more than 20 years ago in Muzzle Blasts. I have forgotten his name, but I am sure I saved the article some place.

Perhaps John Hinnant will comment on this question, as John has spent as much or more time chasing down old techniques as anyone now living in the USA.
 
The "dirty digit" strikes again! :grin:

I believe Mr Harry M. Pope first did his work in the 1800's.

"...I first made a barrel (entirely on a foot lathe) because I could not buy what I wanted: i.e., a 25 caliber, which I made in 1887..."

He died in 1950.

The above information is from the book Respectfully yours, H.M. Pope by Gerald O. Kelver, copyright 1976.

W.W.Greener, maker of fine English guns, in his book THE GUN AND IT'S DEVELOPMENT says while discussing rifleing on page 621:

"...In some the grooves have a regular spiral: in some they increase as they approach the muzzle, in some they are quicker at the breech, and Mr. Deane states that he has seen an old rifle in which the greatest amount of spiral is midway in the length of the barrel, the turn increasing from the breech to that culminating point, then decreasing at the same speed...The American "freed bore" and "gaining twist," common at the beginning of the nineteenth century, and said to have been found in very much older weapons of European make..

W.W. Greeners book was first published in 1881.

zonie :)
 
stupid question....
is your jag on your ramrod real tight, so that it is not unscrewing while you pull out?
 
Try wrapping a cleaning patch around a brass bore brush of bore diameter. That ought to prevent skidding. :winking:
 
I'm getting consistant results, so I'm convinced. It doesn't really matter any way, I just want to shoot the thing!
 
paulvallandigham said:
. . .
There is a barrel maker that has figured out Harry Pope's Code, and can make gain twist barrels in all the old Pope calibers. There was an article about him more than 20 years ago in Muzzle Blasts. I have forgotten his name, but I am sure I saved the article some place.

Paul,
Was it Jim McLemore? (sp)

Regards,
Pletch
 
Pletch: That could be the name. He was living in N. Indiana, working in his own shop, and had figured out Harry Pope's code.

Zonie: You are exactly correct. My typing got me. Harry of course was active as a barrel maker in the 1870s, and eventually became associated with the Stevens rifle company, when they were making a fine target rifle.( I believe with Ballard) When smokeless powder and repeating rifles became the rage, at the turn of the century, Stevens stopped producing rifles and turned to making shotguns. They eventually sold out to Savage, which continued to use the Steven's name on some of its guns up through the 1950s, when I became involved with guns.

Thanks for catching my Typo, and adding information about Mr. Pope. I have seen his catalogue, and would have loved to been alive back when his guns were setting all the records. The resurrection of Black Powder Cartridge shooting, and long range rifle shooting has given us all now living an opportunity to save our pennies, and own a fine target rifle with all the whistles and bells that would have been available in 1880. What a trip!!
 
Gain Twist is a form of rifling popularized by the famous barrel maker, Harry Pope, back in the 1970s, and '80s.

Just one more lil typo you had too Paul.
Harry would have been a lil over a hundred or so and still makeing barrels. :v
 
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