Messed up brass rod end, need help.

[Brokennock]

Okay, okay, I probably shouldn't have messed with this once I ran into problems, I know, I'm bad with this stuff......
I need to make a new ramrod for my Centermark Fusil des Chase. I really like the ramrod end that came on the rod with the gun.

Original shown on the gun and next to a store bought replacement. I like the original so much better. (The drilled and tapped hole in the face was not original)

Many years ago (when I was even worse at these things) I pinned the end on but did a sloppy amateurish,,,, but effective, job of it.

I know, I know, piss poor job peaning that pin.
Well, now I couldn't get anything under the folded over and filed end.
So I tried drilling it out.
The drill wandered off center. Thus, not only not removing the pin, but when I tried to correct it, I punched through creating a hole through the other side.

While what's done is done, I will continue to flog myself though so I don't need help with that.
But, has anyone seen a rod tip like this for a 5/16" rod available anywhere? No, Track Of The Wolf does not have them.
By any chance would anyone here have one in a stash of spare parts?

Could really use some help here.
Thank you,
Dave

 

[poker]

Id think about 20 minutes on a lathe would get you a new one

 

[appalichian hunter]

If you cannot find a brass tip, and have a drill press perhaps make one from antler or bone, my smoothbore ram rod did not have a end piece and I made one from antler (elk) to stay away from the center of the antler as much as possible fit it to the rammer with a bit of two part epoxy and a small nail peened and sanded flush on the peens been working good for the last 10 years. If no antler the solid tip from a cow horn will work also.

 

[necchi]

Many years ago (when I was even worse at these things)

Well, now that your older, did you get any better at it?

The rod itself is trash and easily replaceable. That's a given.
But I think with some care you "could" salvage that end with nothing more than a silver colored dot on each side you'd have to explain,, but who's lookin?

 

[TDM]

I agree with @necchi, get a new rod and do what needs to be done to salvage the original tip. It has lots of character.

 

[LongWalker]

You should be able to file off the pin where it is bent over, then punch it out. An extra set of holes isn't going to significantly weaken it but don't try to pin it with two pins.

 

[S.Kenton]

If you can get under that “ bend” on your pin to straighten it out, then you might be able to pull it out with needle nose pliers. After you pull that pin, then clean up around your unplanned hole, clean the area up good with rubbing alcohol, or brake cleaner. Put some flux in and around the hole Then heat it up slightly with a torch, and put some solder in the hole.. then scrape the excess off with your pocket knife.. while your at it, you can even fill the hole in on the end of it as well.
I too really like that old original pusher.. I’ve not seen one exactly like that.. close but not quite the same.

 

[Brokennock]

Thank you gentlemen.

 

[Brokennock]

Id think about 20 minutes on a lathe would get you a new one

If I can botch just this simple task, I don't think making one on a lathe is going to happen, lol.

 

[Brokennock]

Well, now that your older, did you get any better at it?

No, probably not. Won't find out until I put a tip on a new rod. Lol.

 

[Brokennock]

If you can get under that “ bend” on your pin to straighten it out, then you might be able to pull it out with needle nose pliers. After you pull that pin, then clean up around your unplanned hole, clean the area up good with rubbing alcohol, or brake cleaner. Put some flux in and around the hole Then heat it up slightly with a torch, and put some solder in the hole.. then scrape the excess off with your pocket knife.. while your at it, you can even fill the hole in on the end of it as well.
I too really like that old original pusher.. I’ve not seen one exactly like that.. close but not quite the same.

I tried several things to get under the bent part, it was getting obvious that I was either going to damage the brass, or punch something through my hand, so I went to the file. Tried to file off the bent part, or at least significantly weaken it, failed, went to drill.

 

[Brokennock]

If I try to solder the holes, how do I keep the solder in the hole and not just flowing out the other side?

Is there brass colored solder available?

 

[dave_person]

Hi Dave,
First, are you using the tip to mount a cleaning jag? Is that the reason for the threaded hole? If you are, I suggest a few changes. The tip should be flush with the wooden rod not pinned on top unless it fits really tight on the wood. Second, with clearance for tapped hole, you cannot have much length of rod inside the tip. The set up looks weak to me if you use it for ball pulling and cleaning. I suspect it was mounted originally just to be used as a rammer tip and you pinned it later thinking to use it to attach a jag? I think a new rod and tip is the best solution. The maker did not want to use a bigger diameter rod so the tip fit properly, and then have to taper it to fit the gun. Instead, on a 5/16" rod, he put a tip meant to be flush mounted on a 3/8" diameter rod. If you want Dave, cut the tip off and send it to me. I can make an exact replacement that you can fit to a 5/16" rod. PM me if you want to do that.

dave

 

[Notchy Bob]

First of all, kudos to @dave_person ! A great post, and a kind offer.

I think I'm seeing two questions in @Brokennock 's original post... First, how to salvage the original tip, and second, where to get a replacement. I think the original tip is still usable, but it'll just have an extra hole in one side. I would agree that a 5/16" rod is really skinny, and if I were to make a new rod, I would do as Dave suggested and start with one the same diameter as the shank of the ramrod tip, cut a shoulder on it and file it down to a light press fit inside the ramrod tip. If the rod is too large for the ramrod pipes, it can be tapered down to fit.

I cross-pin ramrod tips when I install them, but drill a slightly undersized hole in the wood, and enlarge the holes in the metal sleeve to the diameter of the cross pin. Use a toothpick to put some epoxy in the hole and smear a little on the pin and drive it in. When the epoxy has cured, I cut the protruding ends of the crosspin off and file them flush. I don't peen them, and I've never seen one budge.

I don't know of a way to make the extra hole in the original tip invisible. If the tip is epoxied onto a new rod, some of the squeeze-out may fill it, but it will still be visible. However, I don't think the structural integrity of the brass tip is compromised, in any event.

Muzzleloader Builder's Supply has trade gun ramrod tips that are similar to the one on Brokennock's gun, but not identical. His has a really cool, single knurled ring on it, while the tips from MBS have three plain rings. This photo is from their website:

The end has a threaded hole, which you don't see in this photo, and they state that "These tips are made to be installed on a 3/8" ramrod and are caliber specific...," i.e. .58 caliber or .62 caliber. They get $4.50 for these, which I think is reasonable.

I don't own a French trade gun, but I have two Northwest guns. One was from North Star West, and the other from Caywood:



The gun on the right is from NSW and is 20 gauge. That's the original ramrod tip that came with it. The head of the rod is .562" diameter, and the rod is .351", or just a bit less than 3/8". The gun in the middle is from Caywood and is 24 gauge. The original rod that came with it is shown on the left. The head of the brass tip is .530" in diameter, and the rod is .420", slightly less than 7/16". The brass tip is nicely fitted to the rod. This rod had been blackened, and the tail was not tapered. The forward lock bolt impinged on it. I considered tapering the tail, and Danny told me he had "ebonized" the rod with black shoe polish (!) so I could touch up the finish, but I decided instead to just make a new rod from scratch, which is what you see in the gun. It is 1/2" at the tip (the largest diameter hickory rod I could get) tapered down to a good fit in the ramrod pipes and tapered a bit more at the tail to clear the lock bolt. It has a metal tip on the tail end that is threaded for accessories. I think I finished the wood with good old tung-based spar varnish, which is tough, waterproof, and I like the color.

Note that the end of the Caywood ramrod tip is cupped for a ball, while the NSW ramrod tip is flat, for what it's worth. Since I shoot mostly ball in these guns, I cupped the end of my homemade rod slightly. Probably not necessary, but there it is.

Here is a side view of the same guns and rods:



The ramrod tip on the NSW gun looks like a ringer for the one from Muzzleloader Builder's Supply. If you prefer the Caywood tip (the bottom one in the photo), it would not hurt to ask Mr. Caywood directly if he has them for sale. I'm not aware of any other source for them.

I don't know about French guns, but evidently ramrods on some Northwest guns had enlarged metal tips installed. This later-styled Northwest gun, now in the Buffalo Bill Center of the West Collection, was said to have been one of Frederic Remington's studio props. Note the enlarged tip on the ramrod:



Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Hawk54]

I would brass braze the holes, polish, and age. Easy to do. Once you patina the repair you probably won't be able to see them.

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

A little heat will get the wood out. Then a pair of needle nosed plyers will get the pin out. There's several items out there to fill the extra holes. Semper Fi.

 

[CTShooter]

I have a lathe so that is an option, the holes can be brazed, I know the owner of the welding shop in Winsted.

 

[S.Kenton]

Hi Dave,
First, are you using the tip to mount a cleaning jag? Is that the reason for the threaded hole? If you are, I suggest a few changes. The tip should be flush with the wooden rod not pinned on top unless it fits really tight on the wood. Second, with clearance for tapped hole, you cannot have much length of rod inside the tip. The set up looks weak to me if you use it for ball pulling and cleaning. I suspect it was mounted originally just to be used as a rammer tip and you pinned it later thinking to use it to attach a jag? I think a new rod and tip is the best solution. The maker did not want to use a bigger diameter rod so the tip fit properly, and then have to taper it to fit the gun. Instead, on a 5/16" rod, he put a tip meant to be flush mounted on a 3/8" diameter rod. If you want Dave, cut the tip off and send it to me. I can make an exact replacement that you can fit to a 5/16" rod. PM me if you want to do that.

dave

There ya go buddy.. that’s a generous offer that would take!

 

[Brokennock]

Hi Dave,
First, are you using the tip to mount a cleaning jag? Is that the reason for the threaded hole? If you are, I suggest a few changes. The tip should be flush with the wooden rod not pinned on top unless it fits really tight on the wood. Second, with clearance for tapped hole, you cannot have much length of rod inside the tip. The set up looks weak to me if you use it for ball pulling and cleaning. I suspect it was mounted originally just to be used as a rammer tip and you pinned it later thinking to use it to attach a jag? I think a new rod and tip is the best solution. The maker did not want to use a bigger diameter rod so the tip fit properly, and then have to taper it to fit the gun. Instead, on a 5/16" rod, he put a tip meant to be flush mounted on a 3/8" diameter rod. If you want Dave, cut the tip off and send it to me. I can make an exact replacement that you can fit to a 5/16" rod. PM me if you want to do that.

dave

Thank you very much.
I'll be sending you a pm after dinner.

 

[Brokennock]

I have a lathe so that is an option, the holes can be brazed, I know the owner of the welding shop in Winsted.

We can talk more later.