Middlesex vs. Discriminating General The Same!

[Alden]

Where one stands is often a function of where one sits.

Here? Americans actually have a wide variety of choices and, unless an individual is financially strapped and embarrassed, we don't have to put the clearly inferior India-made arms on a pedestal...

 

[RAEDWALD]

Put Indian muskets on a pedestal? No. But they are qualified to go onto the shelf.

The bottom shelf maybe, but one should expect a 500€ Indian gun to be inferior to a 1,000€ Italian gun, let alone a 2,000€ top quality US custom made one.

There should be only two issues. Firstly can they be safe? Well a Birmingham proof is as good as I think you can get. Secondly are they worth 500€? That is for the buyer and his pocket to decide.

I believe that they are safe (if proofed) and that they reflect their price. That means that they need some extra hand fettling to come up to the standard of the more expensive guns. But then, that is why they are cheaper.

I am not knocking Italian and Spanish proofing but I respect the standards of British, French and German proofing to be the best.

For those who are not familiar with the process (and I am told you can take your weapon in person to the London Proof House and they will let you experience the proofing process with them if you ask nicely)it involves more than shoving a humungeous charge down the barrel.

The barrel is carefully measured at certain points along it's length. Then the heavy proof charge is fired. After which the barrel is measured at these points once again. It must both survive the heavy charge and not change dimensions at any point along the barrel if it is to pass proof. I believe in Germany they fire the proof charge five times before remeasuring.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I have read instances of tc guns blowing up, guess no one should fire any crappy US made guns.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

There are examples of poor workmanship from everywhere. I have one of those Dixie shotguns made in Belgium in the 1950's. I would never fire it. I don't consider it safe. In the 1940's and early 1950's Stoeger sold some Belgiam made muzzleloaders. Almost no one I know would fire them today. Marathon Arms sold some very poorly made garbage in the US mostly from Spain. In 1972, a sporting goods store outside Reading PA had two Italian cap and ball revolvers on display that had blown up. Even the Spanish maker jukar made good stuff compared to early Japanese muzzleloaders sold here. There were also good companies all over the world that made a good serviceable product. India's industrial capacity started 150 years ago, when the Brits established factories and armories there. Mahindra tractors are gaining a name for themselves. (Heck 40 years ago, who would have bought a Kubota or Deutz?) When i ran a sporting goods store in the early 1970's, we sold the heck out of a 22 rifle made in India. They were indeed inexpensively finished, but there was nothing dangerous about them or nonfunctional with them.) Sooner or later, we will learn which companies are better quality, like palmetto vs Uberti.

 

[Ike Godsey]

well, india made muskets - at least a couple of them blew up - here on the net are enought picutres from an india made brown bess or lately from india made lorenz musket that show a split barrel...

i will not start a war here, but i have never heard any word of an india made musket blowing up anywhere else than in the US.

why is that? :idunno:

ike

 

[BEP]

A few years ago, a Pedersoli musket blew up as well. Why isn't that brought up again and again? Two India- made muskets exploded. The one that was sent to White Labs was shown not to be defective but probably exploded due to fouling build-up in the bore, to the point of being obstructive.(http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/special/HPWhiteReportWithPersonalInfoBlocked.pdf ) I never heard of the second one - the Lorenz - being sent for analysis.

Does anyone recall a lab report about that Pedersoli?

Yes, they are clunky and should be mainly considered a semi/mostly finished kit. But I also think that they're going to be around in a larger and larger presence just because lots of us, as muzzleloading hobbyists, like tinkering with things.

 

[Ike Godsey]

that was NOT the point i was trying to make.
the point is, "those muskets" blew up in the US.
but these musktes are sold "all over the world" - everywehere in Europe, in india as well as in australia, south africa... well, you got an idea.

so, again, why is it, that "those evil muskets" are blowing up in the US and not elsewhere?

my it be 'cause of the lack of proofing, like we do it here in germany? i think not.
i do believe that those one or two muskets that blew up are do to "bad hanling" - not less not more.

 

[BEP]

Ike - I was not addressing your post in particular; I merely hit "reply" to contribute to this thread. Your post - which raises a good question - was merely the one directly before mine.

 

[Trot]

I often hear about a Pedersoli that blew up as well but can find no hard evidence of it. I did quite a bit of research when I was thinking of getting a musket, and did find three documented Indian guns that failed, the Lorenz makes four that I know of, but could not find any info on the Pedersoli. I did find one Pedersoli that was overloaded and the stock actually broke upon firing but the barrel was fine. Can anyone shed any more info on the incident? I am not knocking the Indian made guns and have no dog in this fight, just looking for information.

 

[Billnpatti]

Ike, I think the most likely explanation of why the Indian muskets blow up in the U.S. and not in Europe is that in Europe any gun has to be proofed by pretty high standards and any substandard gun would not hit the market over there. The Indian guns sold here in the U.S. do not have to meet those same high proofing standards and this allows substandard guns get into the hands of folks here in the U.S. I mean, what do you expect when we allow guns from India to come into the U.S. with no touch hole drilled and marked as "non-firing replicas" . We get these non-firing replicas, drill touch holes in them and sell them as firable replicas. Any wonder they blow up here? My personal opinion is that Indian made guns are just pipe bombs on a stick. But that is just my personal opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and that is mine. If you like them, buy them. I don't like them so I don't buy them. I think everyone should vote on this topic with their money.

 

[Alden]

I'd say it's more likely the law of averages...

There are alot more people in the US than Germany. Alot more guns are sold, I'm sure, to people in the US. People in the US shoot even if they are often blanks for reenactors-only.

Add a healthy dose of "the common man" too...

But we're off topic -- the resellers here often share the assortes below-average manufacturers. Period. Mistake by the Jake in the Lake!

 

[Billnpatti]

I must agree. Your logic makes a lot of sense.

 

[Ike Godsey]

I'd say it's more likely the law of averages...

There are alot more people in the US than Germany. Alot more guns are sold, I'm sure, to people in the US.

worng.
i was talking about the sale of india muskets in all other countrys but the US.

i doubt that in the rest of the world there a re lesser people than in the US

 

[Ike Godsey]

Ike, I think the most likely explanation of why the Indian muskets blow up in the U.S. and not in Europe is that in Europe any gun has to be proofed by pretty high standards and any substandard gun would not hit the market over there. The Indian guns sold here in the U.S. do not have to meet those same high proofing standards and this allows substandard guns get into the hands of folks here in the U.S. I mean, what do you expect when we allow guns from India to come into the U.S. with no touch hole drilled and marked as "non-firing replicas" . We get these non-firing replicas, drill touch holes in them and sell them as firable replicas. Any wonder they blow up here? My personal opinion is that Indian made guns are just pipe bombs on a stick. But that is just my personal opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and that is mine. If you like them, buy them. I don't like them so I don't buy them. I think everyone should vote on this topic with their money.

well, we get them here in two different states: one as an officially proofed fireable muskets and as "wallhangers" with no drilled touch holes - so the state of the gun is the same.

if you're relay on the "non proofing" status that the US got, maybe it is time to think this one over - don't you think?
that does not say to give up any part of your freedom, but improves safety to your hobbys and safes lives - you bet?

BTW someone from this forum contacted me the other day and told me about an US maker, using poor material for his barrels, and he told me those guns blew up now and then.
what is the difference between a non proofed india product without a touch hole to a non proofed US product with touch hole?

 

[palladius]

To me it defies belief that the same companies send higher quality muskets to send to one continent but set aside lower quality from the same production lines for another. It's user error--any weapon can fail if improperly handled.

 

[Billnpatti]

Well, whatever the reason, like I say, vote with your dollars. You know what you want and are willing to accept. :hmm:

 

[alex efremenko]

A quote from period French documents reads something like this:
"....and 600 fusils de chasse from Tulle,because these are the best.The Natives know them and will not accept any others."
You get used to a certain product, good or bad you think that is normal.Then discover something actually how it should be or better,you will not go back. Indian guns are that way....

 

[spudnut]

I came in 7th in a rifle match with my MV Fowler...

Yeah, out of seven!

:rotf:

Kiddin'...

Yeah it was a rifle match with about 30 shooters so 7 was pretty good :blah:

 

[spudnut]

I have a LLP from the old Narregansett Arms co that is made with pretty quality parts and it doesnt spark as well as my India guns,Even after rehardening the hammer several times.I had to retap the lock bolt holes as well as having to custom make two lock bolts for it.

 

[Alden]

:thumbsup: