Might be putting some wood back

[GANGGREEN]

We've lived here on my farm for about a dozen years but we've never cut timber. Prices are up right now and the forest is about ready, so I think I may be having a timber cut at some point this year. I had initially intended to cut just some soft maple to daylight some of the better hard maple and red oak but, like I said, prices are up. Now it's looking like I may cut at least some hard maple and red oak to go along with the maple.

I'm not sure exactly how to go about it but I may set one log/tree aside for myself or just buy a log back from whoever ends up buying the timber, particularly if I notice a curly maple log coming out or laying on the log landing. I'll send the log to the sawyer and have a nice bunch of stock blanks sawed for me and laid to dry in my barn. What a pleasant thought, having my own gun blanks from a tree harvested here on the farm.

There will likely also end up being at least a bit of beech, birch, ash and maybe even some basswood cut. There's a particularly large, 4 or 5 trunked basswood that will probably be cut and I'll definitely also have them set aside a log from that tree that I'll have chunked up and used for duck decoys and decorative fish carvings. The cash from the timber harvest is exciting but the lumber for projects might be more exciting for me.

 

[Jim Evans]

Are you using a forester? If not you will not get the amount of money that the lumber is worth.

 

[GANGGREEN]

SR, I was thinking of calling the plumber to handle the cut. :wink: Just kidding, in reality I already have a consulting forester giving me a complete forest inventory and a forest management plan and then I'll likely hire one to set up the cut and put out the bids as well.

 

[Dreamwalker]

Good move!

 

[Birddog6]

Piece of advice on timber cutting. Make a Contract deal with them. ALL the money from EVERY load goes into the bank. And you need someone honest to count the loads, or they will lie about them as well. The money can only be accessed by signature of BOTH of you on the checks. When you are all done & they have Fixed up your roads back & put all the brush in piles as you request, Then & ONLY then, you go divvy up the money. Also make them post a $ 2 mil. bond of default of the contract.

If they won't do that, tell them to kiss off & go find another guy.

Absolutely DO NOT believe for a minute they will fix your roads & property & etc.or come back & straighten things right for you !! They NEVER come back unless they want to cut again. Once they start moving equipment out, they are history & so are you as far as they are concerned.

They have cut property all around my area, and also at my hunting lease. I have Yet to see them do what they say they will do. I only know of one guy that got it done correctly, and he did it as I said above.

Last time they cut at the hunting lease, I asked the property owner if they cleaned up ? He said Yes, looks good. Well, it did from the road. But he never went into the woods & really Looked..... Total disaster every place else, except what you can see from the road.... :shake: Gonna take $ 20,000. in dozer work to clean up what they left & get the roads accessible again.

Keith Lisle

 

[GANGGREEN]

All good advice Keith. Most of the bigger buyers in this area are professionals who really care about their reputations but in most cases, they sub out the work on the ground and not all of the subcontractors are as concerned with their reputations as the big bosses are. I'll try to remember to post my overall opinions about how the cut went and I'll definitely try to post photos of whatever blanks I end up keeping from the cut when it's all over.

 

[Birddog6]

Also be aware, of what they leave there standing ? about 1/2 of it will be damaged & die as they skin the trunk bark on them up & they die from disease or whatever. Talk to your forester. He will tell you that very few trees can survive from trunk bark damage. They can survive from a few limbs broken & etc, but main trunk damage, the tree is usually destined to die in a few years or rot in the core.
So 50 yrs later someone comes to cut again & most of those trees ya saved will not be worth harvesting as they all have rot in the center.

Keith Lisle

 

[fusil de chase]

Keith is in no way exagerating the amount of grief you can get yourself in on this. Lost money, degraded property are a real concern. The other concern is that feeling like you got robbed, lied to, disrespected leaves a real bitter taste.

When you say 'daylighting' I assume you realize that you will also be wind lighting and are likely to loose those trees in a future wind storm.

If you want a 'few logs' for crafts go fell the tree and take the log.

'prices being up' sounds to me like your feeling some pressure to do something, stop.

Too much monentum here, you have hardly even settled into the property.

If you need a reason to pause take a good look around your area for stands of hardwood that are as mature and nice as yours. Are they everywhere?
What is a clear cut piece of ground worth compared to a well timbered parcel? Will you need to declare the income from the timber sale?......... You can only get about 1% interest on the capital you invest from the sale, hardly a sound time to convert a zero cost asset into cash when the fed is printing cash LOL, ya can't print firewood.

Sorry to be so negative but I deal with land agents in the timber, O/G and sundry industries on a regular basis and often see landowner's dreams of having thier cake and eating it to turn into nightmares. Everyone is your friend/professional when there is money on the table. The Forester works with the fellers all the time you are a passing fad.

If you really must have the cash hire a feller by the hour, hire a skidder by the hour and standover the whole operation 24/7. Sell the logs at the property line for cash. If that all sounds like too much hassle/learning then you don't need the money bad enough.

 

[GANGGREEN]

A little background is in order here fellas. First of all, I'm a wildlife professional and have been associated with (and occasionally work with) some folks in the timber industry for years. Although I'm not a land manager or a forester, I know quite a bit about proper forest and wildlife management and there are LOTS of good reasons to cut timber. My goals for the property are to make some money, improve my timber stand going forward and to create some wildlife habitat.

I've got a northern mixed forest with some oak as well and what you find is that you often end up with "worthless species" that prevent any real regeneration of the valuable species (from a monetary aspect as well as a wildlife habitat aspect). In addition to changing the dynamic of the forest to some degree to value oak, maple, ash and some other valuable wildlife trees, you also daylight the higher quality trees that are at an age when they're just about to take off, thereby increasing their growth rates considerably (and allowing them to grow straight and tall).

Like I said, there are all sorts of reasons why I'm going to do some cutting and many reasons why other landowners cut, it doesn't have to be all negative. If I can realize a capital gain of tens of thousands of dollars while improving my timber and improving the wildlife habitat of the property, all while taking advantage of fairly high demand and high prices on timber, wouldn't I be a fool not to do so? Obviously there are considerations and I have to protect my woodlot and my investment but that's not mutually exclusive to the goals that I mentioned previously.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

My father had 90 acres in Berks county, PA and had it logged about 15 years ago. (it hadn't been logged in about 70 years) I don't know what arrangements he had, I believe through a forester, but he had also been a state land manager for years. Even when they were done, it was hard to tell any trees were taken. They put in a gravel road and their staging loading area was graded and seeded when they were through. They left it more like a park, than the usual mess. I know dad cut up most of the tops for firewood. It appeared to me that they took only about one of every ten mature trees. A very selective cut.

 

[talkingamoeba]

I've been managing and logging my woodlots myself for nearly 2 decades. I have spent a great amount of time educating myself so that I make decisions that benefit wildlife and make my woodlots better for my children. I have also spent some time with GangGreen in his woods. I am not in anyway involved in his decision, but I know he is doing the right thing. The woods work that had been done prior to him acquiring the property was not done the best and the work he is speaking of having done will improve his woods immensely, both for timber and wildlife, in the long run. The most important thing during the cut is conscientious loggers. Protecting saplings and remaining trees is usually not given proper concern and was the reason I started doing my own work.

 

[GANGGREEN]

I wondered if you'd see my post and chime in, I thought of you while typing.

 

[talkingamoeba]

We have very similar long term goals. Everyone has an idea of what a forest should look like. Many times the park look is appealing to the eye and a brushy look is not. However, a good healthy forest must have fallen logs, standing dead trees, brushy areas, brambles, areas of new growth, seed trees etc... and is seldom pretty as a picture. When seen as a whole and the habitat it is, that same "mess" becomes beautiful to me.

 

[Sean Gadhar]

You can only get about 1% interest on the capital you invest from the sale, hardly a sound time to convert a zero cost asset into cash when the fed is printing cash LOL, ya can't print firewood.



If you really must have the cash hire a feller by the hour, hire a skidder by the hour and standover the whole operation 24/7. Sell the logs at the property line for cash. If that all sounds like too much hassle/learning then you don't need the money bad enough.

I would print out the above and reread it, I don't want to go ff But if the world goes nuts that stand of trees has value that can be slowly parsed out. If the dollar were to crash and it's buying power dropped 20 or even 15% in the next four years....would you still be happy to have all that wood turned into taxable cash?

 

[GANGGREEN]

Frankly, I think we are getting off topic but I'll answer your question to the best of my ability. Understand that cutting timber is sometimes necessary and almost always beneficial if done right. I don't see my timber stand as ONLY an investment (it's more valuable to me as recreational property and wildlife habitat) so I would never stockpile it just in case of bad economic times (and frankly, we're already there). As I tried to point out previously, I'm doing some things to improve my timber stand, thereby increasing the value in the long term. Personally, I'd much prefer to get three cuts worth $60,000 to me while improving the property for wildlife, versus getting one huge cut over the same time period that was worth $140,000. I think most people can see where I'm going. Something else to consider is that both hard and soft maple are very high right now and red oak is at a price never seen before. There's always a risk of missing an opportunity. Hypothetically, I could allow those trees to grow another 2 or 3 inches over the next 10 years and cut them at that point for less money than I'll realize by cutting them now. I know guys who realized $3000 an acre on timber cuts a number of years ago when cherry was really through the roof. The remaining cherry that wasn't cut then are now healthier and larger but I can assure you that the same acreage wouldn't be worth $3000 per acre today had those landowners stockpiled the trees waiting for a rainy day (because while oak and maple are pretty high, cherry is actually down quite a bit from the historical highs of a decade or so ago). For many people in America (fortunately I'm OK financially right now), this IS a rainy day and considering that timber is at historically high prices, it's hard to fault anyone for cutting right now as long as the long term health of their forest is foremost in their minds. Sadly, there's a lot of misinformation out there about logging in general and forest/wildlife management and people really need to do a better job of educating themselves at times (I'm not suggesting this about anyone who's responded in this thread, I meant it as a very general statement about the average American).

You can only get about 1% interest on the capital you invest from the sale, hardly a sound time to convert a zero cost asset into cash when the fed is printing cash LOL, ya can't print firewood.



If you really must have the cash hire a feller by the hour, hire a skidder by the hour and standover the whole operation 24/7. Sell the logs at the property line for cash. If that all sounds like too much hassle/learning then you don't need the money bad enough.

I would print out the above and reread it, I don't want to go ff But if the world goes nuts that stand of trees has value that can be slowly parsed out. If the dollar were to crash and it's buying power dropped 20 or even 15% in the next four years....would you still be happy to have all that wood turned into taxable cash?

 

[Rifleman1776]

fortunately I'm OK financially right now

That may be the key to your approach. Both options are investments, not all in dollars.
If things were financially tought for you, selling early and investing the dollars might look like the wisest move. Each to his own.

 

[GANGGREEN]

Agreed. We all like money and more money is always good, but I'm fortunate that I'm making this decision based mostly on what's right for the woodlot, with the need or desire for money being 3rd or 4th on the list.

fortunately I'm OK financially right now

That may be the key to your approach. Both options are investments, not all in dollars.
If things were financially tought for you, selling early and investing the dollars might look like the wisest move. Each to his own.

 

[kaintuck]

:stir: :haha:

ANYHOW.....for making your own rifles 3 or more years from now....that's a great idea to have your own wood from your farm!...i did that with some cherry and black walnut from mom's place. I have a few walnut blanks left, and will use them someday for my personal guns. I have a cherry stocked southern mtn rifle with EXCEPTional curl from a log cut 20ft up the tree, where a huge branch jointed the trunk.AND a walnut stocked southern rifle for mom's wall.....
my sister has a lancaster walnut stocked from that same tree, and 2 of my friends have rifles from that wood.....
you will be glad you got the blanks~and i tried hanging one blank, just to experiment, while it dried in the shed....no difference was seen from a 'stacked' blank and it~ i do keep the ends painted, and watch for bugs!!!

and yup....loggers on our 235 acre farm, did some grounds damage, but then....we had a D-8 cat, they couldn't messed up what I couldn't smooth out!!!!
nothing like being 18 yrs old, on a D-8 cat, and told to 'work it out'! :youcrazy: