Military Heritage Arms aka Access Heritage arms in Canada ?????

[FlinterNick]

Thanks. Charles says he will stand behind his locks and stuff. Did he not?

Nick, I don’t see a solution. Most guys just can’t afford better.

Not sure about veteran arms warranties. I’ve worked on quite a few of his locks. The mainsprings can’t just be replaced, they’re hand made, I’ve had to make three, not including a sear spring or two.

I’d ask Charles what the warranty entails. Screws, lock correction, frizzen work etc.

 

[FlinterNick]

The thing that gets me is that the Indian guns are so buffed out and shiny. And the wood… off I know that I’ll have to alter something, I’d rather it come not buffed out and without a stock finish. If It’s a real dog, I guess I could grovel and see, beg Nick, who I know, KNOWS his stuff. (As he pulls out the Marsh voodoo doll). I don’t see a lot of solutions.

Nick, when you get these locks, what do you have to do to them?

I almost have to case harden the internals, frizzen. Stone and polish the parts, sometimes relocate a screw. Make a replacement screw, I’ve made many springs.

A 1795 lock needed it’s pan raised to close tight to the frizzen


Lots of stuff

Defarb stamps, US surcharge etc.

 

[sturmkatze]

I almost have to case harden the internals, frizzen. Stone and polish the parts, sometimes relocate a screw. Make a replacement screw, I’ve made many springs.

A 1795 lock needed it’s pan raised to close tight to the frizzen


Lots of stuff

Defarb stamps, US surcharge etc.

Sounds like a worthy service. You do something that’s needed.

 

[sturmkatze]

I will say this I looked at them and was tempted..but then came to my senses I saw the Kibler at $830 +$300 for the lock. So $1,130 for a work of art Or spend $ 800 bucks on something that may or may not need work. It was an easy choice for me.

Just saw this post as the forum kind of jumps you around when you post. Good sir, you are talking apples and oranges here. Jim Kibler does not make a musket. Most people want a musket for a certain reason, say reenacting or because they want a smoothbore.

If you want a gun to shoot deer or paper, get one of Jim’s guns. They are beautimus. However, if you are not the standard size, then what? What if you wishes to be a red coat or reenact?

 

[Ballshooter]

Just saw this post as the forum kind of jumps you around when you post. Good sir, you are talking apples and oranges here. Jim Kibler does not make a musket. Most people want a musket for a certain reason, say reenacting or because they want a smoothbore.

If you want a gun to shoot deer or paper, get one of Jim’s guns. They are beutimus. However, if you are not the standard size, then what? What if you wishes to be a red coat or reenact?

Yeah I get that if you are into reenacting as a red coat a Kibler is not going to fit that role, the India guns do. Maybe if you switch sides the Kibler would fit that role lol..Like I said, I looked at them and was tempted. Only because I wanted a brown bess or a trade gun. Did the Kibler come in the caliber I wanted No..I compromised. Myself I just can't see spending nearly a kibler kit for one. Thats just me it may not be you or anyone else's thoughts. It's just that a thought....if you are happy with an apple for the price of an orange that's fine. It's what makes us all different.

 

[FlinterNick]

Sounds like a worthy service. You do something that’s needed.

I really enjoy working on the Indian guns, they offer a new challenge with each one. I mostly work on the ones in my group.

The barrels are generally fine too, most of the one’s I’ve seen have drilled barrels not DOM barrels.

 

[FlinterNick]

If tge lock sparks as well as a chambers or Davis or silar, if it’s crisp and clean what could I gain by a ‘better quality lock’?
If the wood to metal fit is the same as on a gun costing just twice is much where I’d the loss of quality?
If the weight is the same and balance the same where is their poor balance.
This Indian gun out weighs my TFC and certainly my SMR, but 9.4 pounds is about what a long land bess weighs. This isn’t a long land but has similar stock and 46 inch barrel.
If I didn’t know it was a Indian gun I would guess the wood walnut
Fore arm chunky? Sure is, but not unusual on any OTC gun, not but a day to do that.
No otc guns I’ve seen had ramrods worth a darn, so I expected that replacement.

I got experimental with an Indian made 1717 musket.
The internals were garbage, i replaced all of the internals with Davis Lock Internals, made sure everything lined correctly.

Welded over screw holes, and dyed in the inside of the plate with dycem to align everything. The lock is super charged now ! The only thing i had to do was heat up the cock, bend it down a little to get it hitting the frizzen right.
Got lucky with the frizzen, it was made of a medium carbon steel, 1060ish range, it carburized very well.

It’s a very nice gun now.

Just had the fella by the lock parts, and pay a small fee.

 

[sturmkatze]

Yeah I get that if you are into reenacting as a red coat a Kibler is not going to fit that role, the India guns do. Maybe if you switch sides the Kibler would fit that role lol..Like I said, I looked at them and was tempted. Only because I wanted a brown bess or a trade gun. Did the Kibler come in the caliber I wanted No..I compromised. Myself I just can't see spending nearly a kibler kit for one. Thats just me it may not be you or anyone else's thoughts. It's just that a thought....if you are happy with an apple for the price of an orange that's fine. It's what makes us all different.

It’s not that. I reenact. I have plenty of rifles. For revvy I want this. For F&I I want a long land. I cannot afford a custom long land.

 

[tenngun]

On of the things you see with loyalist that works over the locks before sending, and the non touchhole military heritage guns is a choice of guns you can’t get via other sources except custom made.
They have fish tail and musket shaped matchlocks. The pre bess flint lock musket, the earliest long and then short land, sea service, artillery carbines, officers fusils
Then seventeenth and several modules of eighteenth century French, Potsdam and Spanish muskets, classic and early NWG, and wide variety of side arms.

 

[springfield art]

pix in order:
Loyalist 1768 (per their description: "a slightly modified version of the 1766 infantry musket" )
MidWayUSA Pedersoli 1766
Loyalist 1795
Listing for original 1795.
Listing for original 1795.
from Pedersoli site, 1795
from Pedersoli site, 1766

Curious on what makes you state it is a scam?

View attachment 217431

It's at least mis-leading as the Pedersolis are a bit 'crisper' in detail. The machining and overall quality are better on the Pedersolis. They should at least depict the actual product they are selling.

 

[wganz]

It's at least mis-leading as the Pedersoli's are a bit 'crisper' in detail. The machining and overall quality are better on the Pedersolis. They should at least depict the actual product they are selling.

Do you think that essentially a Mom & Pop operation in a shop by their house:
link to Google Maps

vs.​

is going to have the same Madison Avenue level of advertising as a multi $million/year corporation such as Pedersoli?

 

[sturmkatze]

It's at least mis-leading as the Pedersolis are a bit 'crisper' in detail. The machining and overall quality are better on the Pedersolis. They should at least depict the actual product they are selling.

Maybe, but since the stocks from the sub-continent are so fat, you can trim them down. Wish it was better wood.

Pedersoli stuff is nice. Mine was from 1998. They say that later ones are different. I had a Lyman (Miroku) that I sold to my friend (who then passed). It was an okay gun, but I hated the crown on the lock. I had rest of it defarbed. Didn’t get the crown. I think the Pedersoli “feels” better. I bet a new real, period one would feel “finer”. All that’s in my cards is a long land from the sub-continent.

 

[FlinterNick]

Do you think that essentially a Mom & Pop operation in a shop by their house:
link to Google Maps

vs.​

is going to have the same Madison Avenue level of advertising as a multi $million/year corporation such as Pedersoli?

It’s misleading, they should just delete the picture of the pedersoli. You don’t need to be a big company to press the back space button.

 

[Tumbledown]

Yeah I get that if you are into reenacting as a red coat a Kibler is not going to fit that role, the India guns do. Maybe if you switch sides the Kibler would fit that role lol..Like I said, I looked at them and was tempted. Only because I wanted a brown bess or a trade gun. Did the Kibler come in the caliber I wanted No..I compromised. Myself I just can't see spending nearly a kibler kit for one. Thats just me it may not be you or anyone else's thoughts. It's just that a thought....if you are happy with an apple for the price of an orange that's fine. It's what makes us all different.

Nope, the Kiblers aren't going to work for reenacting. Riflemen were too limited in numbers and battles. And it's not even close to "nearly a Kibler kit" in price, which is going to run at least $1200 for a kit, which still needs an investment in time and supplies to finish.

 

[FlinterNick]

Nope, the Kiblers aren't going to work for reenacting. Riflemen were too limited in numbers and battles. And it's not even close to "nearly a Kibler kit" in price, which is going to run at least $1200 for a kit, which still needs an investment in time and supplies to finish.

There’s always the question of what kind of rifle is appropriate for revolutionary war, there really is no answer to this as most who are out in the field, don’t actually know what the facts are, I would say as long as its not a Kentucky rifle or Southern Mountain Rifle, you’re ok (with a grease bore), there’s not much in the name of ‘standards’ for revolutionary war rifles. On the British side, it’s much more standard, 1776, Ferguson, Pistor etc.

There are appropriate revolutionary war rifle locks however only an expert could point this out, if you had a Kibler Colonial Long Rifle or a Late period Lancaster long rifle with a Ketland Lock, most wouldn’t say one is appropriate and one is not.

Personally I think many American riflemen used small caliber smoothbores in the 58-66 caliber range, the american long rifle is a little over romanticized in revolutionary war culture.

 

[FlinterNick]

Maybe, but since the stocks from the sub-continent are so fat, you can trim them down. Wish it was better wood.

Pedersoli stuff is nice. Mine was from 1998. They say that later ones are different. I had a Lyman (Miroku) that I sold to my friend (who then passed). It was an okay gun, but I hated the crown on the lock. I had rest of it defarbed. Didn’t get the crown. I think the Pedersoli “feels” better. I bet a new real, period one would feel “finer”. All that’s in my cards is a long land from the sub-continent.

Pedersoli stocks from the 1970’s are little larger buttstock, but nothing significant. The Lock was larger too, so they had to have a little more wood around the mortise. A current lock will not drop in to a 1970’s era pedersoli bess, the current lock is smaller.

At some point during the the 1980’s they moved over from a hand made lock to a CNC made lock, which is why it’s smaller now. The mainspring is on the 1970’s lock is a third model bess mainspring, and the mainspring on the current model is a modern repro spring.

 

[cebusey]

Yup I get the bad ones however many of the ones I get are newer also.

Costs: Dave you work on your own stuff, your costs are not going to be relative to someone who can’t or work on their own guns. You have skill and knowledge most do not. So it will cost them, or they find someone to work for free. Add some multiples to your math.

Value: yes most will not resell for their basis and upgrades. I stand by that claim stubbornly. Maybe you know how to sell a Subaru at the value of a Benz that’s not relative to most who will list their guns.
Value is relative if you make 100% profit on one of your guns that’s your buyers loss they won’t be able to recover. I can confidently tell someone if you buy a miroku for $1,000 you’ll be able to sell it for $1,000 or more if you buy a loyalist trade gun for $800 and dump 600 into it, you’ll have a difficult time returning that value.

If you buy indism keep it simple and concise, clean it, stain it, polish it, keep the lock in good order. Don’t add a rifle shop lock, or Pedersoli lock, add a new barrel…. Get rid of the gun.

Business practices: yes at least two of the major US distributors have poor business reviews… and I clearly said don’t buy from middlesex, I never said anything about the other distributors. I’ve in fact promoted loyalist products as the go to fit Indian made arms.

If you drop 2k on a Pedersoli and kit, that’s your problem, I stated many are available cheaper if you shop around. You certainly don’t need a Pedersoli bayonet at 200$.

Hand made parts? Cheap really come on Dave ?! Again if you fix your own great but many of these in poor working conditions do not have drop in parts. In fact I’d say all dont.

Soo...
The Loyalist arms smoothie I bought in 2002 for the whopping price $260 and have NEVER had to replace a single part performing only regular maintenance that any would require would not at this point still get me at least $260 today????

 

[FlinterNick]

Soo...
The Loyalist arms smoothie I bought in 2002 for the whopping price $260 and have NEVER had to replace a single part performing only regular maintenance that any would require would not at this point still get me at least $260 today????

How would I know you paid 260 for a musket?

 

[FlinterNick]

How would I know you paid 260 for a musket?

Why not say you paid $50 ….if you come out on top that’s great man. My point to others is make your purchase wisely.

With that said great job! You’ll do very well on the sale.

 

[Mikekj]

Soo...
The Loyalist arms smoothie I bought in 2002 for the whopping price $260 and have NEVER had to replace a single part performing only regular maintenance that any would require would not at this point still get me at least $260 today????

You’d easily double your money and still give someone a bargain.
And have 20 years of fun behind you.