Min 54cal charge for elk hunting

[mnbearbaiter]

A friend of mine drew a CO ml elk tag and has already started shooting a rifle he picked up for cheap. A T/C Renegade with the slower twist Green Mountain " round ball barrel" in 54cal. To keep it simple he's shooting basically from my stock of supplies. Hot shot nipples, mag caps, ffg triple7, .015-.020 cotton patches with totw mink oil lube. After much troubleshooting with ball/patch thickness/powder combos we have it shooting ragged holes at 50yds with 80gr ffg T7, an op felt wad, a .530 ball with .015 lubed patch. At 75yds its still a good group and at 100yds it drops off a bit. My concern is the charge isn't stiff enough for elk??? Its same loading I use in my TVM Leman 54cal but I shoot 100gr of T7. If elk were inside of 50yds I'm sure its enough but what about farther? I'm aware of the T7-bp conversion so would like a lil advice as well as what any of you use for elk in similar guns?

 

[nwtradegun]

100 gr. goex 2f or 85 gr. swiss 3f.

 

[hoochiepapa]

I use 90 grs. of fffg, and have killed 4 elk, ranging from 70-100 yards. It just takes a well placed shot. I used a Cabela's Hawken with Great Plains bullet from Hornady.
Good Luck.

 

[longcruise]

in our camp the .54 rules! Elk killed with prb over 80 to 120 grains of ff and fff. The 80 grains works as well as the heavier loads so I'm thinking with the hotter t7 it should be just fine too.

It's easy to over fret the load selection. You need an adequate load well sighted, but beyond that it will serve you well to study up on elk and the productive methods of hunting them. Whitetail tactics are mostly not applicable.

 

[Vaino]

My .54 Hawken w/ a 34" bbl w/ a 1:66 twist likes 120 grs 3f Goex behind a .535 swaged RB and a .020 thick patch.

This big a load isn't req'd to bring down an elk, but is used to achieve a flat shooting trajectory out to 100 yds and slightly further. The last elk shot was at a paced off 107 yds and collapsed after going 40 yds after the shot.

Actually this load could be used for head hitting squirrels.....very accurate.....Fred

 

[Sean Gadhar]

I'm running 85 gr. of FFF through my .54 but I have a limit of 100ish :wink: Meaning with a good rest and standing elk I might take that 112 yard shot.

But Last year with am adequate rest and a standing stunner of a bull at 150 yards. I watched & wished

It would be so easy to forget what we are doing, purposefully limiting ourselves to what we can accomplish with this tool "muzzleloader"

Can he tell 90 from 130? I hunted vary open ground last year & the elk I ended up taking (with a centerfire) was a good 70 yards farther then I thought it was :redface: Someone was behind me with a rangefinder but the herd was moving & the bull mixing, when he stopped short & I had a clear shot, I took it. Then the guy with the rangefinder gives out the range :redface: it was outside the limits I set for the rifle I was shooting. Luck was with me & I hit the chest but the open ground fooled my eye & I took a shot I should not have.

I would shoot your load at a 90 yard elk, but not at a 130 yard elk. Can he remember the limits when the time comes? That may be the bigger question for use all. :idunno:

 

[Rifleman1776]

But Last year with am adequate rest and a standing stunner of a bull at 150 yards. I watched & wished

Bravo for you. :applause: That is ethical hunting. And the rest of your statements indicate you know, and appreciate, the limits of the obselete style firearms we are using. Beyond 100 yards a round ball drops dramatically. And, for most of us youngsters, open sights are a serious challenge as well.

 

[mnbearbaiter]

He's normally an in**** guy but is well versed with his renegade already. I'm impressed but then again he's had a great advisor :hatsoff: I will say a round ball moving a lil slower does seem to penetrate better in my estimation when it hits a bone on entrance. Higher velocity tends to pancake more I've found. Either fine for deer sized game b t maybe a slightly so we're moving ball as accurate as he's shooting won't be an issue? My loading slams everything and if you do conversion of 15% I'm near 115gr of bp by equivalent. Plenty of time to tinker and add maybe 5gr to his load and see if grouping holds? If not I've recommended a 75yd zero anyway so I'd guess he will be 1 1/2" high at 50yds to achieve that and prly 3" low at 100yds which is his max range. Plenty of time to shoot and he's already got a hunt ready gun according to you folks so thanks for the reassurance

 

[Patocazador]

According to the conversion factor of 15% more powerful, 80 gr of 777 is equal to 92 gr of Goex. I would think that's enough for sure. Bullet placement is more important in my book.

 

[Big Hammer]

If you are going to hunt elk with a traditional muzzleloader, you really need to think about something. It will probably be cold. It can easily be wet. It can even be cold AND wet.

You need to use BLACK POWDER, not a substitute. Why? Ignition temperature. Black powder ignites at 325 deg.F. The substitutes, on the other hand--including Triple 7--all have an ignition of 650 deg.F or higher. This puts them in the category of a PROPELLANT rather than an explosive and gives them the ability to be shipped in open commerce and sold off the shelf in stores. This is a federal requirement of the DOT and its Hazmat shipping policy.

What this means to an elk hunter using a traditional firearm such as a percussion or flint ignition system is that Triple 7 and the other subs are TWICE AS HARD to ignite as is genuine black powder. When you have a misfire at 6000 feet and 17 degrees with Triple 7 and a number 11 cap, now you will have a better idea why. Good luck, and good hunting.

 

[mnbearbaiter]

Muzzleloader season here in MN opens after Thanksgiving and goes for 16 days. I've always used T7 in my caplocks and never had a hang or misfire! I know ive shot deer at -10deg air temp. That said CO ml season is for 9 days in the middle of sept when temps are 40-80deg. I believe his will be just fine

 

[Big Hammer]

Just sayin'...

 

[Spikebuck]

I've always used T7 in my caplocks and never had a hang or misfire! I know ive shot deer at -10deg air temp.

Same here. I've shot a number of deer in double digit below zero air temps, snow, high wind...you name it. I have NEVER had a problem with a hunting load going off with T7. That's with #11 Remington caps.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Big Hammer while you are well meaning, your info is not true. wisconsin's muzzle loader season is after the Nov gun season. I have shot a lot of deer with Triple Seven in cold and snow conditions with no miss fires or problems. With Colorado's muzzle loader season being in Sept, he will be just fine. When problems araise in a cap lock using Triple Seven, the problem can normally be traced to improper cleaning and maintaining the rifle. Clean your niple and pop several caps prior to loading.

 

[Big Hammer]

Rat Trapper--I appreciate your courteous response. However, you and the other responders need to understand a couple of things.

One is that I was the factory test shooter for Goex from 1996 until 2009 when Hogdon purchased Goex. During that period I test fired and chronographed every lot of sporting powder that left the Minden plant. I was also privy to technical points such as the ignition temperatures of black powder and the various substitutes. So I KNOW that the substitute powders are roughly twice as hard to ignite as is black powder. I was around and actually helped develop the ascorbic acid based substitutes, and test fired all of them.

I was often called upon to trouble shoot rifles that were either innaccurate OR GAVE IGNITION PROBLEMS, especially caplocks. The rifles that consistently had the most ignition problems were TC Hawkens or Renegades. The breech plug design of these rifles is susceptible to having a flash channel that is often not properly cleaned out during the casting process. While the overwhelming majority of TC Hawkens and Renegades give no problems, there are some that require extra effort to get to shoot.

I am reminded of a Goex employee that offered his Renegade as a test rifle. When I received the rifle, it had a musket nipple and used a musket cap. Ignition was fine WITH THE MUSKET CAP. When I replaced the musket nipple with a standard nipple and No. 11 cap, the rifle absolutely would not fire any of the substitute powders--and it is the only rifle I have ever seen that would not ignite black powder with a standard No.11 cap.

When we pulled the breechplug, there was casting debris on the walls of the inside of the breechplug. We took a dremel tool and removed the slag, and the rifle went back to work with the musket cap and nipple.

I made my original post because of two things. One is that the OP stated that he was using a Renegade, and in my experience these rifles have a higher than average number of ignition difficulties. The other reason is that I KNOW that the substitute powders require roughly twice the temperature to ignite as straight black powder, and if I am hunting anything, especially elk, I don't want ignition problems.

I'm sure many of you have TC Renegades and Hawkens, and have had good luck with them. I just didn't want a new guy to run into a fixable problem he didn't know existed.

 

[Patocazador]

In one of my caplocks I shoot BH209. This powder is much more difficult to ignite than b.p. or any of the other subs. I have converted that gun's nipple to a Hubbard's Mag Spark that uses 209 primers. I have never had a misfire or hangfire using this set-up. BH209 is 30% more powerful than black powder and is a 'manipulated' smokeless powder so it doesn't absorb moisture like the others thus is much less corrosive.

Wherever there is a problem, there is usually a solution.

In all my other cap and flint guns I use real black; I just like it better.

 

[Rat Trapper]

I have half doz TC Hawken rifles and they will all fire Triple Seven with no problems. It is good to hear someone was able to get Black horn 209 to fire in a cap lock. Myself, I don't like BH209 and prefer Triple Seven if I'm not going to use Goex. I think the elk hunter will be just fine with either Triple Seven or Goex. Tell him to use the one that works best for him in his rifle.

 

[mnbearbaiter]

I love real black powder but...even though I live in MN and could drive to TOTW and save shipping on a whole lot of real bp I just shoot T7 which is right here locally for like $28/lb. Shoots well as any and I have yet to have any issue with ignition using hot shot nipples and Win mag caps that were designed for bp replacement powders and I leave my TVM Leman loaded 24/7 during hunting season in an unconditioned space. I tape off end of muzzle and nipple when unprimed.

 

[nwtradegun]

I lived incolo. for 8 years. near the white river national and san jaun forests. hunters using 50 cals. had to track there elk some for miles. those using larger calibers rarely had to.

 

[longcruise]

That said CO ml season is for 9 days in the middle of sept when temps are 40-80deg.

Heck, that's the best case scenario! He should be ready for 0 to 100. It can happen.

Big Hammer has a legitimate point regarding the difficulty of igniting the subs. Even Pyrodex can be problematic. But, I think he goes of the track when assuming that low ambient temps or moisture is going to exacerbate the problem.

Shooting in wet weather is not a problem unless the powder actually gets wet. then you have a problem regardless of powder choice