I am deferring to more learned minds for information on this subject. There has been quite a discussion on using tranny fluid in conjunction with a ML. I shall not attempt this while in any degree of sobriety. My query regards the use of mineral oil as a patch lube. It has had the snot refined out of it, to the degree it can be taken internally as an, ah, "intestinal lubricant". It is always stated, and I'm not sure why, that no petroleum product should be used as a patch or bore lube for a black powder gun. They are used for centerfire arms, so it can't have anything to do with burning temperature of powder setting the lube on fire. Or something. The amount in the bore would be so small as to not be a danger to comtaminating the powder charge if removed properly before shooting. Besides, any other liquid lube would run the same risk. Mineral oil just looks like it would make a great patch lube, even better than for relieving "distress in the lower tract" as they say on the tube. Just why can't petroleum products in general, and mineral oil in particular, be used as a patch lube? Inquiring minds want to know.
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Mineral oil patch lube?
- Thread starter doverdog
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My best attempt to explain it is that the interaction of petroleum based products with blackpowder combustion increases or contributes to BP fouling buildup.
By contrast, so called natural type lube products minimize fouling and keep it very soft, so that when you seat the next patched ball it wipes the fouling from the bore and pushes it back down on top of the powder charge, where it's ejected on the next shot, etc.
There are many different 'natural' lubes...one I've always used is natural lube 1000 and it's been outstanding for me.
By contrast, so called natural type lube products minimize fouling and keep it very soft, so that when you seat the next patched ball it wipes the fouling from the bore and pushes it back down on top of the powder charge, where it's ejected on the next shot, etc.
There are many different 'natural' lubes...one I've always used is natural lube 1000 and it's been outstanding for me.
Something I hadn't thought about, but you comment on "setting the bore on fire" jogged some brain cells. I wonder if it is possible to get a secondary explosion from certain lubes and oils in the barrel? I had an RWS 45 air rifle, and I noticed that if I put a drop of oil in the air chamber I got a decided "Crack!" and increase in velocity. It was compressing and igniting - just like a diesel engine - when the spring fired the piston. It also eventually blew the leather seals all to pieces.
I've never heard of anyone using mineral oil as a patch lube. Seems like it would be an awful mess in trying to transport and apply it; though I used to carry little bottles of black powder solvent in my shooting bag without a problem.
I have heard the same warnings Roundball mentioned about increased fouling from other petroleum based lubes and oils.
I've never heard of anyone using mineral oil as a patch lube. Seems like it would be an awful mess in trying to transport and apply it; though I used to carry little bottles of black powder solvent in my shooting bag without a problem.
I have heard the same warnings Roundball mentioned about increased fouling from other petroleum based lubes and oils.
Guest
I have been useing a patch lube/borecleaner made of castor bean oil 30% alcohol 60% and dishsoap 10% with very good results. I have been shooting ragnosed guns for a long time and this combination is still in process of evaloution. Castorbean oil is very slick and gives good corrosion protection to my bore after the alco dries.Castor oil was the oil of preference in early aircraft and used in racing engines until sinthinetics were developed. I do not reley on this totally I lube with LPS 3 prior to puting my guns away. I buy my bean oil from an industrial supply house a gallon lasts a lonnnnnnnng time.
Still use it in R/C model airplane engines (18% +/- castor oil in a nitromethane/methanol mix fuel) because it does not burn and lubricates even at high engine temperatures. I've been planning on trying it myself in a beeswax mixture. (Actually, I'm waiting for someone here to crack the Natural Lube 1000 code for a home-brewed substitute).
I am curious as to why you add the dish soap. Doesn't that attack the oil? Detergents emulsify the oil (old boater's trick: a few drips of dish detergent will knock the sheen from spilled diesel off the water's surface - the Non Coast Guard Approved way to avoid a $50,000 fine). We clean our planes up with Windex; which is basically 80% water, 15% alcohol, 5%hosehold ammonia and a dash of dish soap.
I am curious as to why you add the dish soap. Doesn't that attack the oil? Detergents emulsify the oil (old boater's trick: a few drips of dish detergent will knock the sheen from spilled diesel off the water's surface - the Non Coast Guard Approved way to avoid a $50,000 fine). We clean our planes up with Windex; which is basically 80% water, 15% alcohol, 5%hosehold ammonia and a dash of dish soap.
I may do a little R&D on my own question and try some in the back yard. If things go south, I'm not far from cleanup facilities. As to mineral oil being a mess to carry in the field, I would carry the patches pre-lubed, in a small tin, like I do now. This was more of a curiosity question than a desire to change lubes. I make my own lube, which I call Cat Whiz, out of equal parts olive oil, Murphy's Oil Soap, alcohol, and Witch Hazel. I have shot 40 shots without having to swab the bore using this stuff. ::
Oooo! I like the Witch Hazel twist. The fact that you are getting 40 shot strings has me captivated, too. That's near nuff as good as Natural Lube. I haven't come up with anything homebrewed that gets me better than three with patched balls in my rifles. I like a more solid wax lube for carrying in a tin; the Natural Lube unfortunately being on the runny side in hot weather. The olive oil has fatty acids, and the which hazel is an astringent, binding those fats, Murphy's Oil Soap is a surficant, getting everything flowing and binding it together as an emulsion onto the metal. The alcohol is just enough of a solvent to keep the fouling loose without attacking the vegetable oils. Hmmmmmm. You may have the secret ingredients. Now all I have to do is get it thickened up with beeswax.
Guest
I origionally mixed up the castor/alcohol without the soap however it required shaking often as the two did not mix well. The addition of soap emulisified the oil into the alcohol, works very well now. I keep bees and have also done a castor/beeswax 50/50 mix with good results in my 1861 springfield for skirmishing.
Guest
Kenny- I read with interest, your supposition on the Bean oil,(castor oil) being used prior to synthetics OR mineral(petrolium) oil in engines. This is quite true, as it was the oil of choice for aeroplane engines prior to mineral oils.
: Today, we use it in our 2 stroke alcohol model airplane engines as it is indeed, a higher heat AND film-strength lube than the synthetics now available. It does leave a residue if burned though, and it is possible the ML might just create enough heat to burn the oil, however brief the period of heat involved. Mixed with beeswax, I see castor as being possibly much better than neatsfoot oil or vaseline, a petrolium derivitive. The Vaseline/beeswax does work, however it much too viscus for a patch lube, being perfect for grease=groove bullets. Possibly, a mix of 60% bean-oil/40% beewsax would be soft enough for a patch lube- or some extra experimentation is needed to get the appropriate mix- perhap it will be 80/20?- but I think probably well worth the effort due to the way the more viscus lube works so well at keeping the ctg. barrel's BP fouling soft. Using my beeswax/vaseline mix on REAL bullets allowed 20 shots to be fired without cleaning, and then a patched ball with spit cleaned out that whatever fouling there was as if there hadn't been any slugs shot. I do think the bean oil/beeswax might be another 'perfect' lube for those who want to grow their own.
: Today, we use it in our 2 stroke alcohol model airplane engines as it is indeed, a higher heat AND film-strength lube than the synthetics now available. It does leave a residue if burned though, and it is possible the ML might just create enough heat to burn the oil, however brief the period of heat involved. Mixed with beeswax, I see castor as being possibly much better than neatsfoot oil or vaseline, a petrolium derivitive. The Vaseline/beeswax does work, however it much too viscus for a patch lube, being perfect for grease=groove bullets. Possibly, a mix of 60% bean-oil/40% beewsax would be soft enough for a patch lube- or some extra experimentation is needed to get the appropriate mix- perhap it will be 80/20?- but I think probably well worth the effort due to the way the more viscus lube works so well at keeping the ctg. barrel's BP fouling soft. Using my beeswax/vaseline mix on REAL bullets allowed 20 shots to be fired without cleaning, and then a patched ball with spit cleaned out that whatever fouling there was as if there hadn't been any slugs shot. I do think the bean oil/beeswax might be another 'perfect' lube for those who want to grow their own.
Guest
Castor bean oil stock # 102SK11 $22.99 Gal www.Mcmaster.com Phone 330-995-5500 Have a Ball :haha:
Somehow I can just picture some of the spit patch lubers picking up a Caster Oil or Mineral Oil lubed patch an popping it into their mouths for a moment.
Suddenly a look of suprise comes across their faces and the next thing you see is them highballing it towards the privey. :: :: :: ::
Yes, I know. I'm weird. ::
Suddenly a look of suprise comes across their faces and the next thing you see is them highballing it towards the privey. :: :: :: ::
Yes, I know. I'm weird. ::
Guest
Petrol products and burning black powder make an aweful tar like substance in the bore that is nasty to try and remove.
As far a ptach lubes, there are hundreds (or more) formulas that all work well.
Crisco is and has always been very acceptable as both a black powder bullet and patch lube. It's an old standby that wroks well as does lard, rendered bear fat, oppusum grease, lizzard lips, bat droppings and anything else you couldimagine.
Zonie: once while being beguiled by rollingb into using "spit" patch I accidently popped a Ballistol lubed patch into my mouth. Amazing how quickly one can spit volumes while stifling wretching ones guts out! :curse:
As far a ptach lubes, there are hundreds (or more) formulas that all work well.
Crisco is and has always been very acceptable as both a black powder bullet and patch lube. It's an old standby that wroks well as does lard, rendered bear fat, oppusum grease, lizzard lips, bat droppings and anything else you couldimagine.
Zonie: once while being beguiled by rollingb into using "spit" patch I accidently popped a Ballistol lubed patch into my mouth. Amazing how quickly one can spit volumes while stifling wretching ones guts out! :curse:
Herb
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I don't like spit patches, but know people here who shoot a blanket shoot (maybe 20-25 shots) with them and no cleaning between shots. Also know someone who just broke a ramrod trying to keep using spit patches with no cleaning. Once my 8x32 cleaning jag broke off in my .45 Green River Leman up at Fort Bridger in a match. Cured me of spit patches, or greased patches for that matter, and 8x32 jags. I use half Murphy Oil Soap and half (91%) isopropyl alcohol, presoak the patches and store them in a cap tin. Or you can use a bottle and wet the patches as you use them. The fouling is kept soft and is no problem at all, unless you wait 20 or 30 minutes before reloading. Then you feel the fouling. I have shot up to maybe 40 shots with no cleaning, and I have done this in a .54 Henry Albright Lancaster flinter at 100 degrees. The barrel was so hot I couldn't hold it, but didn't see that it affected either accuracy or velocity. I could try these other lubes to see if they work well, but I feel no need to try anything else.
Thought...of the hundreds of thousands of posts written about muzzleloading, one of the all time most often written about topics seems to be what type lube to use for patches, and it's always puzzled me trying to understand why.
My biggest concern with shooting is always consistency from shot to shot and on a personal basis if I was experimenting with a different lube every few weeks it would drive me crazy (some might say it would be a short trip!)
With the broad availability of excellent prelued patches, and/or excellent lube to put on patches, I was wondering why this topic seems to come up so often...
My biggest concern with shooting is always consistency from shot to shot and on a personal basis if I was experimenting with a different lube every few weeks it would drive me crazy (some might say it would be a short trip!)
With the broad availability of excellent prelued patches, and/or excellent lube to put on patches, I was wondering why this topic seems to come up so often...
Well . . . 'cause it's fun! How you gonna know what you're using is the best if you don't try others? (Yeah, my wife never agreed with that one, either). I hate to have to rely on a factory produced anything when it comes to my muzzleloading. That's just my personal 'tic.' It's like finding the Holy Grail or the Grand Unification Theory. What simple mix of common substances available when these firearms were originally constructed will produce the best results? It's a hobby within a pursuit within a lifestyle . . . or sumpin like that. So what if I still have to go to the drug store and buy a plastic bottle of witch hazel? It still feels like I beat the system. Heck, I sold seeds and greeting cards for a whole summer once just for a Gilbert chemistry set - and that had the lamest 'expirements' book to follow. The trial and error stuff was the fun part. I diiscovered seven new smells formerly unknown to mankind.
You ever notice how many patterns there are for tying flies for fishing? They all look the same to the colorblind fish: a little gray fuzz. So how come some guys go banannas trying to find toucan eyelashes and spotted bustard butt-hackles for tying exotic patterns that don't look like anything a fish would normally eat? You ever read what goes into some of the traditional salmon fly patterns?
And everyone wants a Secret Snake Oil recipe they can share in hushed tones with their shooting buddies.
You ever notice how many patterns there are for tying flies for fishing? They all look the same to the colorblind fish: a little gray fuzz. So how come some guys go banannas trying to find toucan eyelashes and spotted bustard butt-hackles for tying exotic patterns that don't look like anything a fish would normally eat? You ever read what goes into some of the traditional salmon fly patterns?
And everyone wants a Secret Snake Oil recipe they can share in hushed tones with their shooting buddies.
To chime in on my own post again, and elaborate on the thread by Stumpkiller, I can make a half gallon of my Cat Whiz lube for what a 6 oz bottle of Lehigh Valley Lube costs. I used to use pre-cut prelubed patches from Ox-Yoke but found them to be inferior to the homemade lube and patches I now use. Cost of the drill press notwithstanding, I can cut hundreds of patches for what one bag of pre-lubed ones cost. Like Stumpkiller, I also like to do as much of the stuff for myself as I can. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Guest
Yup roundball,,,,they just said it,,,
Long before "T/C" made their guns and "fake spit 1000" and before OX-YOKE made "bore buttons" or "Bore butter in two different flavors" or Ole #13 cleaner,, that any or all can "buy" at the local store,,some folks were even able to shoot BP arms reliably and with accuracy before that!!:O
Why do we search?? because we'er not stuck,,because we'er different,,because we don't want to do the same as others,,,mm,,we search,,,because we can.
I search because I've outshot so many "commercial" shooters I seek input from competetors as a quest for self improvment,,no bull [censored].
''''''because we don't need to find out "How to be in the top 10",,,,,,,
We need more, cause we'er already there.
If Ya Know ,Don't Ask! If you don't know all of it then have fun watching us learn. If ya cain't add anything then don't,,watch us grow,,that's the joy of a true master,,too watch the learning,,not too question why,,,,
Long before "T/C" made their guns and "fake spit 1000" and before OX-YOKE made "bore buttons" or "Bore butter in two different flavors" or Ole #13 cleaner,, that any or all can "buy" at the local store,,some folks were even able to shoot BP arms reliably and with accuracy before that!!:O
Why do we search?? because we'er not stuck,,because we'er different,,because we don't want to do the same as others,,,mm,,we search,,,because we can.
I search because I've outshot so many "commercial" shooters I seek input from competetors as a quest for self improvment,,no bull [censored].
''''''because we don't need to find out "How to be in the top 10",,,,,,,
We need more, cause we'er already there.
If Ya Know ,Don't Ask! If you don't know all of it then have fun watching us learn. If ya cain't add anything then don't,,watch us grow,,that's the joy of a true master,,too watch the learning,,not too question why,,,,
wow...sounds like you've really arrived...sounds like you're on top of the heap...sounds like you've done everything there is to do, know everything there is to know, mastered everything, bored with outshooting everybody, etc, etc, etc.
It wasn't clear if you meant you were the best shot in the world and there was no competition left worldwide...or if you just meant you were the best shot in the US and there was nobody left to compete with in the US.
At any rate, I'll watch for future posts in hopes there's something in them that I'd want to learn about
It wasn't clear if you meant you were the best shot in the world and there was no competition left worldwide...or if you just meant you were the best shot in the US and there was nobody left to compete with in the US.
At any rate, I'll watch for future posts in hopes there's something in them that I'd want to learn about
Guest
Gee supersumtacks...yer maw hero. :bull:
Guest
Sorry you took offence roundball,,
you asked why the topic comes up,,I'll not bicker with you,,
you didn't add anything to the topic nor did I,,I simply offered a different opinion,,I don't like commercial products. I enjoy the asperation of those that choose to gain enjoyment from a "do it yourself" kind of attitude. The learning curve shouldn't end, if it did we'd all have the "best",we'd all be the same.
Perhaps if there is nothing to add too the topic,,simply refrain from posting,,my post was re-butt too yours,,I apologize,,lord knows I've left many post just lay there;
Sorry, I don't like T/C's,,they are on the low end of performance amoungst my co-horts,,other weapons so dramaticaly out perform T/C on a regular basis,,Yes they are big,,their HUGE,,sorry,, don't like'm! Entry level guns and the learning begins,,been there done that.
Tyme to move forward man,,if there is further issue then please,let's take it off line,,
you asked why the topic comes up,,I'll not bicker with you,,
you didn't add anything to the topic nor did I,,I simply offered a different opinion,,I don't like commercial products. I enjoy the asperation of those that choose to gain enjoyment from a "do it yourself" kind of attitude. The learning curve shouldn't end, if it did we'd all have the "best",we'd all be the same.
Perhaps if there is nothing to add too the topic,,simply refrain from posting,,my post was re-butt too yours,,I apologize,,lord knows I've left many post just lay there;
Sorry, I don't like T/C's,,they are on the low end of performance amoungst my co-horts,,other weapons so dramaticaly out perform T/C on a regular basis,,Yes they are big,,their HUGE,,sorry,, don't like'm! Entry level guns and the learning begins,,been there done that.
Tyme to move forward man,,if there is further issue then please,let's take it off line,,
