Misfires: pre-loading the nipple?

[Armando]

I hope to be hunting with my Traditions 50cal Hawken muzzleloader this weekend. At the last shoot with a muzzleloading group I kept having misfires (happened to me once before). I'd shoot through 4 caps and could not get ignition.

We always had to clear them out by unscrewing the nipple, putting some powder inside the nipple area, then re-capping and shooting. Was never able to identify for sure why it was happening but I'm definitely switching to Goex from Pinnacle for starters.

I was thinking of just pre- loading the nipple area with some powder before I go into the woods. I don't want to risk getting a shot set up and a buck of a lifetime then having a misfire. What do you think?

 

[Griz44Mag]

Your issues sound like some of my early issues. Properly wiping the barrel between shots and not using too much moisture are the key. You are likely pushing the gunk down the barrel into the patent breech and touch hole. There is no need to prime a nipple if you are wiping correctly. There are several threads that address the issue, and some very helpful folks here to get you back on track.

 

[Armando]

Griz
you are corrrect. I actually marked my rod so I wouldn't keep wiping all the way down to the breech on the range. I am super fastidious about keeping my barrel clean.

The issue might be the hooked breech on my type of barrel?

In the meantime, I just wondered if it "unheard of" to pre-load the nipple chamber like I mentioned before a hunt.

 

[hawkeye2]

I'm definitely switching to Goex from Pinnacle for starters.

That would be a good start. While I have found a review by Chuck Hawks stating that it is easier to ignite than the other substitutes I haven't seen anywhere that it is as easy as or easier than GOEX to ignite. I'm not familiarwith the Traditions breach but depending on the size and shape of the passage you might be creating a "fuse" to burn through. Personally I would try to resolve the issue without resorting to filling the passage.

 

[Grimord]

I would check to see if the nipple is threaded too far into the breech. If so, it would block the flame from the nipple from reaching the powder. Also check the clean out screw if you gun has one. It could be blocking the flash channel. Lastly, there could be some hardened gunk in the breech that is partially blocking the fire channel. Try using a breech scrapper, and check the nipple itself. Maybe there is an obstruction in the nipple.

 

[R I Jerolmon]

Griz
you are corrrect. I actually marked my rod so I wouldn't keep wiping all the way down to the breech on the range. I am super fastidious about keeping my barrel clean.

The issue might be the hooked breech on my type of barrel?

In the meantime, I just wondered if it "unheard of" to pre-load the nipple chamber like I mentioned before a hunt.

I have "charged the drum" just for added insurance. With my CVA (same breech) I remove the barrel and the nipple, place the breech in a container with warm water, pour some water down the bore and proceed to "pump" the ramrod/cleaning patch. You will drive the built up fouling out and clean the chamber. Dry the bore/breech (alcohol) and add your chosen rust preventative. Prior to shooting, swab the bore with alcohol to remove oil, snap a cap or two and you should be ready to go. With this type of breech I have found that when wiping between shots and or cleaning, short strokes with the rod/patch will pull the fouling as opposed to pushing all of down into the chamber. I always snap a cap with the muzzle close to a leaf or blade of grass, if you see it move you know all is clear. Load and make smoke. BTW failure to wipe all the way to the breech plug will cause the fouling to accumulate and may well add to the problem.

 

[Grenadier1758]

There are two likely sources for your failure to fire problems and they tend to effect the problem.

1. Pinnacle powder is a substitute powder and while making less particulate fouling, there is still fouling that is getting pushed into your Traditions Hawken sub caliber powder chamber in the hooked breech. The substitute powders have a much higher ignition temperature than GOEX (or any other real black powder). Any fouling that blocks the path from the flash of the nipple makes failure to fire much more likely.

2. Back to the fouling. The combination of fouling from the powder and your lubricant is likely being pushed back into the Tradition's powder chamber. That needs to be cleaned. Even if you remove the barrel and flush the hooked breech in a tub of water and vigorously pump cleaning solution through the breech, you may not remove all the built up fouling. A sub caliber brush of 30 caliber and a cleaning patch need to be run to the bottom of the breech chamber. Water must be removed by WD40 or rubbing alcohol. After final cleaning and lubricating with a rust inhibiting lubricant such as Barricade, the rifle should be stored muzzle down to let the lubricants drain from the breech.

The solution to the failure will consist of a good cleaning. Fire a cap to verify a clear flash channel. Grass near the muzzle should move from the cap firing. GOEX black powder of 3fg granulation would allow the smaller grain sized powder to get to the bottom of the powder chamber. Black powder's lower ignition temperature will make firing more certain.

If you put powder in the nipple without correcting the fouling issues can have a fusing effect that may cause ignition delays. If you have a clear flash channel, you don't need to put powder under the nipple.

 

[Adui]

I own that rifle, had it 25 years. Fwiw, I've only ever had ignition problems when I used the substitute powder black mz. Pyrodex was 99% reliable and I don't think I've ever had a misfire with goex.

In fairness the real stuff is a new thing for me though..

 

[Zonie]

The idea of removing the nipple and putting a little powder under it has been used for years to assure 100% ignition.
When hunting, where you must rely on the gun firing doing this is an excellent idea.

 

[boker]

When I was a kid and before the inlines hit the market. I remember Dad, having all kinds of issues with ignition on his cva Hawkins among others of course that meant My brother (invest arms carbine) and I did too ( T/C Cherokee) We tried everything thing to make sure our guns would go boom. Placing powder under the nipple and even in the nipple at times. Coating caps with finger nail polish to seal out moisture, poping several caps before loading. etc etc. long story short, as time went along and more info became available. I began to see all the mistakes we was making. Dad had moved onto a mordern muzzleloader but I fell in love with the side locks as a kid and continued into adulthood trying to improve my knowledge of them. Dad still thinks I am crazy lol . The same gun we couldn’t get to fire back then. now has no issues with ignition. Misfires have become extremely rare. Maybe it’s not your case but ours was a lack of knowledge. Wrong cleaning techniques. Wrong powder . Wrong caps. Wrong everything basically but hey we had a good time except consistently thinking our guns would misfire on a trophy. I’d step back and evaluate the situation. To see if there was areas that might be causing or at least aiding in the miss fires.

 

[Okie Hog]

When loading the powder lean the rifle hammer side down and give the stock a couple slaps. This allows powder to enter the bolster or flame channel.

 

[user 13896]

A couple of things I do to prevent this:
1. Buy a flush nipple for the rifle. I use a 30cc syringe and with the barrel upright I can slosh cleaning fluid (I've tried about everything over the years, now using Windex with Vinegar) back and forth through the patent breach. Then I blow it dry with compressed air. This is my last step in cleaning the barrel. When I put the regular nipple back in, I put a rubber cap on it to keep moisture out.
2. I have a piece of plastic tubing that fits the nipple. After a shot, I put it on and blow. I clean crud out of the patent breach and add a bit of moisture that gets absorbed by the fouling in the barrel, softening it.
3. After a shot I reload before wiping the barrel. If you wipe before loading you push fouling down into the patent breach. When you load before cleaning, powder will get into the clean patent breach. Your patched round ball will push most of the loose fouling down on top of the powder where it will do no harm. Wiping after loading will will get more fouling out and will give a more consistent (accurate) barrel.

 

[burlesontom]

You shouldn't have to add powder under the nipple to get your gun to fire. it does sound like the coned breech area is fouled with gunk. Use the water cleaning method. I use an old 22 caliber bronze brush with a patch wrapped around it to clean the coned area. It fits just right in my guns and the bronze bristles always pull out the patch. Remove the screw on the end of the drum and make sure the path is clear under the nipple to the chamber. You can shine a flashlight down the barrel while you look through the clean out screw and see if the path is clear to the powder.

 

[Le Loup]

I hope to be hunting with my Traditions 50cal Hawken muzzleloader this weekend. At the last shoot with a muzzleloading group I kept having misfires (happened to me once before). I'd shoot through 4 caps and could not get ignition.

We always had to clear them out by unscrewing the nipple, putting some powder inside the nipple area, then re-capping and shooting. Was never able to identify for sure why it was happening but I'm definitely switching to Goex from Pinnacle for starters.

I was thinking of just pre- loading the nipple area with some powder before I go into the woods. I don't want to risk getting a shot set up and a buck of a lifetime then having a misfire. What do you think?

Personally I would not put powder in the drum, it is not built for that. Just make sure you have a decent well made nipple, snap a cap & wipe the barrel before loading & you should be fine.
Keith.

 

[Feltwad]

The idea of removing the nipple and putting a little powder under it has been used for years to assure 100% ignition.
When hunting, where you must rely on the gun firing doing this is an excellent idea.

The two main causes for misfires are not using the proper size cap for the nipple and the other is loading with the hammer at half cock . Using my sxs and s/b original smoothbores I never have a misfire and I can fire up too a hundred shots a day
Feltwad

 

[azmntman]

What issues does loading with hammer at half cock create? Never heard that one?

to OP, if I were you I would clean as per above and make SURE you are golden there. Then (I read that you can shoot awhile then the problem starts?) the morning of the hunt I always load a half load or so and fire into a tree. Now I know the guns gonna fire as its DRY. I load, hunt and go back to camp, unload, clean sleep repeat. PIA but I been there one time too many, having Mr. 7x7 bull grazing at 50 yds and popping a cap on him. Since I started hunting with a fired dry barrel I have had no more misfires on a hunt. Terrible to have to clean every nite but last time did it for me, "there a 7x7 at 50 yds! POP....xooxoooxoo!" and of course the said trophy will continue to graze or slowly walk away.

Now as for THIS hunt, yes I would dribble a bit of powder under nipple too. Then, after you have the 12 pt buck at the taxidermist, mess with yer gun and try all the tricks above (especially making sure the clean out screw and nipple are not too long) and learn what the danged heck is making yer life miserable at the range.

Good luck!.

 

[Dr5x]

Armando, Good practices would have you Begin your shooting with a small charge of 30 or so grains of powder fired to pre foul your barrel, Then wipe with a damp patch NOT WETM Just damp and then go on about your business.
If you have ever stood to the right of a flintlock shooter you become very aware that when the rifle fires and the patched ball is sent down range there is a remarkable back pressure released through the touch hole.
The same thing applies to percussion rifles.. When you fire a whole heck of a lot back pressure is exerted that wants to exit via the nipple. But it can't because there is the expended cap being held tightly over the opening of the nipple by sting that is keeping the hammer in place.

So what you are doing is keeping the crud that would like to exit through the nipple trapped into the nipple and plugging it after very few shots.

Most folk don't have this problem because the seal of the cap held on the nipple is a bit loose and the crud escapes.
There is a steel nipple sold by Track of the Wolf and others called a HOT SHOT NIPPLE that has a transverse hole drilled (crosswise) through the nipple that lets a lot of those gases and crud escape.
That certainly solved the misfire problem for me.
If you wipe between shots, another cause of misfires is the use of a wet (drippy) patch to clear the residue out of the barrel. The excess water will run down into the breech and wets the next powder charge so that it gives a weakened explosion or No explosion at all. If you wipe, and you should use only a damp patch.
Some wizards follow their wet patch with a few dry patches to soak up the excess. A good thought, but many rifles have a "Patent" breech which is a narrower section at the very end where your drying patches can never reach and the wetness remains unabsorbed.
Dutch Schoultz

I hope to be hunting with my Traditions 50cal Hawken muzzleloader this weekend. At the last shoot with a muzzleloading group I kept having misfires (happened to me once before). I'd shoot through 4 caps and could not get ignition.

We always had to clear them out by unscrewing the nipple, putting some powder inside the nipple area, then re-capping and shooting. Was never able to identify for sure why it was happening but I'm definitely switching to Goex from Pinnacle for starters.

I was thinking of just pre- loading the nipple area with some powder before I go into the woods. I don't want to risk getting a shot set up and a buck of a lifetime then having a misfire. What do you think?

 

[Feltwad]

What issues does loading with hammer at half cock create? Never heard that one?

to OP, if I were you I would clean as per above and make SURE you are golden there. Then (I read that you can shoot awhile then the problem starts?) the morning of the hunt I always load a half load or so and fire into a tree. Now I know the guns gonna fire as its DRY. I load, hunt and go back to camp, unload, clean sleep repeat. PIA but I been there one time too many, having Mr. 7x7 bull grazing at 50 yds and popping a cap on him. Since I started hunting with a fired dry barrel I have had no more misfires on a hunt. Terrible to have to clean every nite but last time did it for me, "there a 7x7 at 50 yds! POP....xooxoooxoo!" and of course the said trophy will continue to graze or slowly walk away.

Now as for THIS hunt, yes I would dribble a bit of powder under nipple too. Then, after you have the 12 pt buck at the taxidermist, mess with yer gun and try all the tricks above (especially making sure the clean out screw and nipple are not too long) and learn what the danged heck is making yer life miserable at the range.

Good luck!.

When loading a percussion muzzle loader with the hammers at half cock allows the air when loading to blow fine or dust powder out of the nipple which caused a void between the nipple and the charge ,if loaded with the hammer down this allow the air to escape but not the powder therefore there is no void which gives instant ignition .Has I have said I often fire a hundred shot a day and never have a misfire.
Feltwad

 

[Jamie from Alberta]

I had a similar problem just this weekend, Had my TC Hawken with .58 cal GM barrel lined up on a nice whitetail doe when "snap".....and another.."snap"...three more times until she went BOOM...by this time Mrs Doe had trotted off, tired of waiting I reckon.
I blame this one on snow and ice, since I am using musket caps, my nipple is a TC Hot Shot with the little holes on the side, I figure some moisture crept in with gun at half-cock and the reasoning for my misfire(s).
Atleast this makes sense to me.I should probably cover up the lock area for these Canadian weather conditions as weather can change on a dime which it did.

 

[Eterry]

When i started in front loaders i had trouble getting the 1st round to go bang, and many times i pulled the nipple and trickled in powder, even put it in the nipple.
I threw away the only pound of pyrodex i ever had... it's 10xs worse than goex.
Now I flush the breach in a bucket of hot soapy water, flush w scalding water, dry, oil, store muzzle down. Before a hunt i Swab out oil, pop a cap, load, and hunt.
Do what it takes to make smoke, keep working until kinks are gone.